Correct! Closed systems have no venting. Open systems though do exactly what you speak of in terms of spraying FW directly into an exhaust steam atmosphere from which there are two vents. When a locomotive is working it should not be irregular to achieve temps around 215º-217º.

I understand that Amines will act as you describe and perhaps I mis-stated the query..... A general question regarding treatment programs utilizing components which will cause PH to spike. Is it, in your understanding, true that bronze well be attacked with PH around or in excess of 11?

Now to delve into anti foams. I have a majority of the times scene operations utilizing silicone based products, they just don't work in our application. Pointedly I've found that they are intended primarily for "closed circuit" power boiler systems. While there may be others out there, I have found NALCO 750 to be a phenomenal product both in its effectiveness and in the fact that adding "to much" will not cause foaming.... as can happen with other products.

Additionally, it has somehow been lost over the years that most railroads included AF products as part of the treatment dosage to preemptively prevent foaming rather add it reactionarily once foaming occurs. From a mechanical standpoint this is critical for the health of superheater units, cylinder lubrication, ring and bore life, etc. as I'm sure you're aware.

And yes it is nice to talk to someone whom "gets it". A lesson for this industry is that we need not "try" things, we don't need to "experiment" to achieve good results. The conditions under which a healthy boiler interior can be maintained are known quantities based on tangible information. I have any twice witnessed a boiler which I consider to be adequately clean which translates to NO scale in sheets, bolts or tubes and no rust.

It can be done!

Cheers, Jason

When you have gunk large enough to "settle to the bottom" it has first come out of concentration and built up on a surface. There is always material in solution within a boiler, hence tds levels (total dissolved solids) and while being down the water column won't get it a surface continuous will. When a locomotive is running the highest concentration of solids exists at the surface and thus it is the best place from which to remove them.

All blowing down a boiler during the day accomplishes is that of removing water so that more may be added to dilute what is in the boiler..... the solids and the chemicals. Bottom blowdowns do more to disturb chemistry than help it unless you get into really bad water. This statement is made of course in comparison to surface level blowdowns.

Cheers, Jason

Dave and Filmteknik, ( hope I spelled it right ),

Explaining things in non-technical terms is one of my traits.
An associate in my work has a PHD in Inorganic Chemistry.
He knows and uses all those supercalifragilistic terms.
I try to get the idea across by describing things like popping shingles loose.
He shakes his head when I ‘ explain ‘ something and says,
“ Yes, that’s about right . “ Here we go ...

Imagine rolling a snowball. There are dead leaves and twigs on the ground.
As the snowball rolls, it picks-up the leaves and twigs.
The action is mechanical / electro static.
The polymer part of the treatment is, in my simple terms, tiny spheres of plastic.
The plastic bits have cracks and crevices on the surface, like a prune or raisin.
Also, the plastic has a positive electrical charge on the surface.
Both of these attract and hold dirt, rust and calcium/magnesium ( water hardness ) chips.

We are talking tiny-tiny particles. I have heard that a polymer sphere will attract and hold up to 3,000 particles on it's surface.

All of this ' dirty snowball ' is so small that it will flow along with the water and out the blowdown.
The snowball is about ' Colloidal Suspension " size. We are removing this when we blow down.

I am a fan of “ quiescent “ bottom blows. This is when the boiler is not sending out much steam. The internal circulation is slow.
When we open a bottom blow valve in this state, we are not substantially detracting from circulation.
Most of the sediment is laying in the mud ring and belly. It is not as good as a washout, but some sediment will get removed.

Likewise, I prefer surface blowdowns when a boiler is steaming at a moderate to high rate.
As Jason stated, the most concentrated water in the boiler under this condition is just at the water level.

Agreed, that the most important function of blowdown is to remove some of the concentrated water and depleted treatment,
and replace it with fresh, less concentrated makeup water and fresh treatment.

With a modern, Solubilizing treatment, removal of bottom sediment, while certainly beneficial, is a secondary function.

With a suspension type treatment, particularly Soda Ash ( Sodium Carbonate ) and either starch or polymer, there is so much volume of solids produced internally, that sediment removal is an important function.

If you have trouble believing or imagining that this action with polymers and undesirables is occurring, it is similar to what happens in a modern water softener with styrene bead resin. The resin is charged with sodium, then captures the calcium, magnesium and dissolved iron. It is also a combination electrostatic and micro-mechanical process.

With an open feedwater heater producing 215 – 217 F water, that is in the very low PPM range of dissolved oxygen, assuming the mixing and venting is adequate.

The Nalco 750 anti-foam is a well known industry standard. There are many competitors. Silicones tend to decrease the surface tension of the water. They are doing the same thing as the solubilizing treatment, on a short-term basis.
The problem is, when the foaming starts up again, it is even more difficult to control.
Measuring and controlling TDS with a combination of bottom and surface blowdowns is the best solution. Silicones will get you out of a jam and keep you rolling.

In my humble opinion, it is the required and expected operation of a steam locomotive that is a major contributor to foaming. Standard utility practice is to not exceed 1 ½ % of steam flow per minute on an up power. This is to avoid lifting water, shocking superheaters and risking turbine damage. I know, steam locomotive engineers laugh at this. Open the cylinder cocks and hope the heads stay on.

OK, Gentlemen and Ladies, here is a sales pitch:
Get yourselves a pocket sized conductivity / TDS meter. It is inexpensive enough. An unabashed recommendation is the Hanna TDS – 4, less than $ 25, last time I checked.

Make a hot sample catch can with a wire handle.

Learn how to use them. If nothing else, start keeping a record of TDS vs. locomotive steaming performance. You will soon develop a trend and limits for yourself.

A sightglass or water column does Not contain boiler water !

It contains a mixture of some boiler water and some condensed steam that came over the top connection, then cooled and condensed in the sightglass or water column.

The only true boiler water sample is directly from the boiler. Even this is 15% more concentrated than the boiler water, due to flash cooling of the water from boiler temperature down to 212 F. The sample will continue to cool to ambient, of course. A temperature of 110 F, cool enough to hold in a bare hand, is cool enough to use the TDS meter.

I realize that there are few, if any, locomotives with a boiler sample cooler. They are common in industrial and marine plants. A 10 foot length of ¼ inch OD stainless steel tubing wrapped around inside a bucket of cool water will make a rough and ready sample cooler. I would avoid copper, because the alkalinity of boiler water will corrode/erode the tubing. The pressure drop/ throttling valve should be at the end of the cooler. That way, the sample is under pressure all the way through, and will not hammer the tubing or flash/ splatter, but will flow smoothly and safely to the cool end.

For the reason described above a sightglass blowdown is not very effective. You waste a lot of water to achieve a small result.

Jason, At a water pH of 11 or above, the yellow metals will have some corrosion.
The polymer film, as discussed earlier, if it is present, will protect them.
Experience over the years has shown there to be no problems with bronze with this type of treatment.

We have a great discussion going here. If steam operators would learn the lessons we have covered, there would be a bundle of money, effort and iron saved.
These lessons and modern technologies are learned and accepted in utilities and industry. For some reason, modern technology in water treatment is not widely accepted in the ‘ recreational steam / railway preservation ‘ community.

Dave, I can picture the ' snake oil salesmen ' drooling over a locomotive account.
Pump it full of chemicals, by the 55 gallon drum and skid-load. As stated earlier, add lots of sulfite, so the customer has to blow it down and use more. I'm a railfan who wants to see the equipment preserved and operating well at minimal expense.
Let's use a few ounces of an appropriate treatment, combined with Best Practices and Real Condition Based maintenance.
Let's avoid unnecessary work and expense.

A few years ago, a member of the operating and maintenance crew asked me to visit a historical steam operation. While the ‘ younger generation ‘ was open minded and inviting, the old school manager stated,
“ We have never used anything but pure mountain spring water in our boilers. “

After the old man retired, the new crew found records of water testing reports, including P alkalinity from treatment, in the files, dating back to the early 1900’s. They also found cases of Nalco “ softballs “ in the roundhouse storeroom.

Thank you.

FWIW, I had occasion to deal with problems caused by having the same person that sold the chemicals do the testing once. His solution to the never improving situation was always more of his products. A third party brought in to test only without having product to sell discovered we were overtreating, and a water softener was required for our feedwater. After following his recommendations we went from a 14 day washout with 25-30 gallons of sludge to a 30 day washout with 2-3 gallons of sludge. He also set us up with a rudimentary testing program so we could monitor our feedwater and boiler water, and treat and blow down accordingly.

I know how this system works. I'm reluctant to replace something I understand and know to be reliable with something nobody can explain. I'm happy to learn more about Terlyn......I might consider trying it once I completely understand its abilities and functions.

dave

060 and Dave,

Testing, testing, testing, NAIL ON THE HEAD! I have more than once witnessed an operation which only tests water one a week or even ONCE A MONTH! Everyday! On a "back and forth" operation I would test (tds) prior to departure of first trip, mid day and end of day. PH and all else every couple days.... these never required particular attention while TDS would vary often and especially post rainfall (well water)

I'm a fan of capturing water when drained for a wash and reusing. Thoughts?

Jason

Dave and Jason,
Please don't misunderstand. I am not passing judgement or ' selling ' any treatment over another.

Apparently, Jason likes Terlyn.

Dave, I understand your skepticism. I like cars with engines I can work on; carburetors and points. I can fix them with a matchbook cover and simple tools. You may never be convinced or satisfied. Maybe you should visit the folks over in cleated wheels in the dirt land, Smokstak. http://www.smokstak.com/forum/showthread.php?t=82205&highlight=terlyn+work

What I am trying to get across to the Lords and Ladies of the shiny rail is to be open to new technologies and ideas.
Manage scientifically.
The high cost of boiler maintenance is one of the primary factors in retiring steam from the rails.
I'm not stating anything new.
Certain treatments are more appropriate in some situations.

Some principles do fit all around;
No one should be operating a steel boiler on neutral pH water.
Water alone is not boiler metal friendly.
To make it kind to boilers, adjust the pH to 10.
If you use alkaline treatment, monotor and control p Alkalinity.
Carryover and foaming do not appear by magic or bad karma.
There is a direct relationship between TDS and carryover / foaming,
learn how to scientifically measure and regulate it.
You wouldn't run 100 mph in the fog ( without cab signals ),
don't run blind with your water chemistry, learn about it and manage it.

Jason, the water that has been drained from a boiler, as we all know by now,
contains dissolved minerals and concentrated corrosive salts.

We drained it for a reason.

IMHO, it is penny wise and pound foolish to re-introduce it to a boiler.

Your well has symptoms of major surface water intrusion. In Wisconsin
snow and ice country, I would be wary of chlorides from winter road salt.
A well known steam operation had a set of tubes fail within a season,
and I point the finger at road salt in the water supply.

I have to sign-off for about a week or two. I am committed to a power plant
scheduled maintenance outage. That will be two weeks of 12 hour days,
plus a two hour trip each way daily.

This is GREAT stuff! Sorry to hear that it's going to take a break.

I've always known that the power plant people had it together, but never could get answers I liked out of the people who were not making steam 24-7. I, like a lot of people in the world of riveted boilers had witnessed some of those gross water treatment failures and was starting back towards the camp of "no water treatment is better than bad water treatment". But the problem with that is we lack an up to date source of information for what's out there. In our attempts to find that we bump into the "snake oil salesmen". Be their products good or bad, if they can't explain how to use them, we're back to square 1.

Hope you guys will continued, I am enjoying the education.


Ben

You need to constantly test your water. And this is whether you have a private well or a city/town water supply.

Either a private or city/town well can have the intrusion mentioned by 060 Hogger unless the well has a cement sanitary seal closing off intrusion from the ground water aquifers.

And in a city water system the quality change from season to season, month to month, day to day or even hour to hour depending on the source of supply. During a period of high demand the supply your supply may be different than during a low demand -- the city may have turned on wells that draw water from different aquifers. Or the operation is importing (purchasing) water from other supplier.

About 40-45 years ago I was working summers for the City of Pasadena (CA) water department as a draftsman. I recall the QA chief remaking during a coffee break period that they had received a call from the plant engineer of the Sears store in town -- he was asking what was going on with the water supply. Suddenly the mineral content/hardness of the water going into his boilers was changing back and forth during the day -- what was happening. The situation was that the City had put on-line a new well and the Sears store was about halfway between the well and a tie-in (supply) with the Metropolitan Water District (Colorado River Water). As the demand for water changed due to morning showers, daytime watering, running the washing machines, evening bathing, etc. the source supply the water to the Sears store changed and changed again.

I'm going to add another ingredient here....the Porta treatment plan. In this case, it may make perfect sense to reintroduce filtered drain water to the boiler after the solids are removed......since the system works based on the boiler water being a tannic chemical soup in the first place held in check with antifoam agents. If 0-6-0 has a chance to check it out before disappearing into a power plant for a while, I'd be very interested in his opinion.

dave

This is one of the most informative threads I've read on RYPN in a long time.

Water treatment is still one of the "black arts" that many of us don't understand. Most of us just call in the salesman and follow whatever advice given. As the thread title says, we don't know what we don't know so we can't ask the right questions.

My only exposure to Terlyn LSB was a TRAIN seminar given by Bill Bondie at Cass in 1999. My take away from that was that it was all proprietary.

And that reason is the basis for my statement about re-utilizing boiler water. It generally has taken me about a week to get boiler water chemistry running on "auto-pilot". Once a boiler was made clean (following several months with good treatment) the chemistry was readily managed right up to the boiler wash. So, in my mind, it's not a matter of attempting to be fiscally responsible but rather a means by which to enter into service with proper chemistry right off.

I do believe in the simplicity and incredible results of LSB. It can be done other ways, obviously but I have found that between the simplicity, cost per 1K gal treated and incredible effectiveness it's hard to beat.

The only other treatment system I've seen good results from is Cannonball but I've never been able to get a cost from the guy who sells it. He qualifies as one of those snake oil salesmen who believes his product is the only savior to our industry. The biggest down side to this product is the sheer volume, quart per thousand gallons versus LSB max of 4oz per 1K though I have never had to use more than 2oz.

Hogger, get that plant going and get back online!

Cheers, Jason

OK, I can certainly believe the original fellow was just trying to sell more stuff, that seems reasonable.

However, I'm curious as to where the 25-30 gallons of sludge was coming from, and what happened to it once you got the chemistry correct?

Was it coming from the water? Was it metal or rust being leached from the boiler? Where did all that stuff come from in the first place, and once you made the changes, what happened to it? Has it gone away, or is it now being deposited on the boiler?

The key was the water softener combined with scheduling blowdowns based on test results. Soft water has less scale capable of precipitating out into solids, and blowing down the right amount at the right frequency prevents the solids that do precipitate out from building up. Or such is my understanding from a laymans and operators perspective........I'm sure many more knowledgeable people can be more comprehensive and explicit.

dave

We had attempted to use the LSB4000 quite a few years ago and met with the unfortunate effect that numrerous employees who were routinely exposed to the stuff were exhibiting similar health issues. We cannot confirm or deny that the LSB was the cause of the issues, but it certainly did seem like it was more than just conincidental. You can take that for what it's worth.

Also, we have recently made the switch to using the products offered by Cannonball Water Group after many years of using a phosphate treatment for controling scale accumulation. I would not go so far as to endorse the products at this time simply because we have not been using them long enough to come to our own conclusion yet. However, I feel that Mr. George at Cannonball is anything but a snakeoil salesman, especially compared to those who have tried to sell the Terlyn product to us over the years. Cannonball has actually afforded us a significant savings over our previous supplier for water treatment and their customer support has been helpful and informative. The Terlyn folks seem to be much more inclined to peddle their ware as a miracle cure than to discuss water treatment options.

You are of course entitled to your opinion about Cannonball and the man who sells it. Your statement about LSB is of the most ignorant and ill informed I have heard regarding anything in some time. LSB has made its way through government testing and has long been approved for use in boilers the live steam from which is utilized in commercial dishwashers. Countless locomotive operators utilize this product as well as live steam operators.
To make such insinuations is to an extent slanderous and an example of the ignorance spoken of previously in this thread.

Jason