A lot of other things may have changed after 1994 as well regarding the use of a 4000.

The increased weight of freight cars since 1994 has caused UP to upgrade thousands of miles of track. As a result, there are probably many places on UP system where the 4014 can go in 2013 that it could not go in 1994.

UP is a larger system than it was in 1994 and has more need to maintain a better public presence than it did in 1994 and as the biggest in the world, what better way to show it than to run the biggest in the world again.

I would have thought the Soviet or Chinese national railway systems would have been larger.....but with the USSR broken up probably at least China still outranks UP in terms of mileage. Anybody know what the comparisons might be?

dave

I have to agree there's more here than just the money. UP buys TV commercials, the cost of the restoration won't bother them much. Neither will the fact it burns more fuel on the few days a year it runs. Chalk it up to PR or good will, community relations, honoring our history or whatever pigeon hole they choose.

But some things aren't that easy. As noted above, the engine hasn't shrunk. There are still clearance issue to deal with. They no longer widen gauge in curves, concrete ties don't come in a curved flavor. On the other hand it could be argued it's not any worse than a 4-8-4 as far as rigid wheelbase goes.

However, they spent years telling us it wasn't possible for many technical reasons, including some folks who were certainly in a position to know. Now they've pledged to make it happen. It is a bit surprising to me.

First, I want to state that I really want the 4014 to be
restored and operate successfully. However: !!
There are clearance and turning issues that have not
yet been addressed. I worry that this behemoth will
not be able to run very many places, and that this
will greatly limit its PR value. It has to be where many
people can see it in person. Nothing ever can truly
substitute for seeing this massive machine under steam
in person. So -- it has to be able to go to major cities
on the UP.

I thought that the lack of proper turning facilities was one
big reason the UP gave in the past for stating that a Big Boy
was impractical to operate

Quite frankly,right now I don't think that it is possible to
operate a Big Boy in any but a very few places..
I really want to be proven wrong about this, but I think
I am right.

Comments, anyone?

I would think Union Pacific has the engineering and mechanical resources, financial resources, and railroad experience to make this happen with little trouble. This isn't some little mom and pop tourist road we're talking about here.

If track geometry needs to be adjusted in a few places, you can bet it will have happened before this beast hits the mainline again. If a few wyes need to be adjusted or even reinstated, they'll do whatever it takes because its obvious the corporate powers that be want this to happen.

What about those places she can't go? They still have that "little" engine, 844.

Just my two cents worth.

Steve Hunter

Do any of us really think UP hasn't already anticipated, asked, and answered these questions before committing to the project? Why in the world would a bunch of amateurs presume to know more?

Sit back and watch, stop worrying. It will run where they want it to run when they want to run it. That's all we need to know....and the transparency into the process of making it happen isn't anything to which we are entitled, but it makes us appreciate the reality of making something like this happen at all even more.

Thanks, UP and those who were compelled to fund it in the first place.

dave

.

Yes, BUT.... you weren't trying to put paying passengers in the seats of those cars en route to and from that "major shipper," now, were you? BIG difference.

I'll go further. Did 1223 run the train over the Corridor itself, or was it "escorted" by a Conrail or Amtrak locomotive with cab signals, etc? Again, big difference.

technical reasons = The Board of Directors doesn't want to do it.

UP has never been one to settle for "2nd largest" anything. 3985 is a wonderful machine in every way, but it's never been the "world's largest".
With a restored 4000, they can now say they do have the "world's largest" steam locomotive, and it runs. Plus, they will have the complete set of their three most modern engines, and that's BIG in it'self. It's an ego thing, it goes back a long time with UP, and I'm glad.
The 4000's were only used where they were needed, but they were designed to go almost anywhere if careful. Look at the many photos of them in service taken in yards with small rail, sharp turnouts & crossovers. Look at the rail in the service tracks. If they can wiggle through all that, they can make anywhere 3985 or 844can go. The tender of each might be the most restrictive component. And the axle loadings on the 4000's are a non issue in 2014, it's less than a modern six axle GE locomotive. That was a big deal in 1941, but not now.

That's still debatable. I once heard a quite specific, and surprisingly detailed, litany of track geometry changes between "Old UP versus modern UP" from someone who was no amateur armchair student--he was/is a high-level mechanical engineer for whom UP Big Boys were/are a rabid passion. I remember the truck details of UP's steam tenders, U50's and DDA40X's coming into the discussion. His conclusion was not that the UP couldn't run a 4000, but that it would be so difficult and complex that it wouldn't be worth the effort for the places it could run.

Now, obviously, there are people at UP in 2013 with a different set of opinions or data. And there are people registered here that are in a position to know whether or not UP's current track geometry can handle a 4000. (They're not going to comment here, because they're either protected by non-disclosure agreements or prohibited from remarking about their work on/with a client railroad.)

But with modern advances in technology, ATCS, PTC, and whatnot, I'm almost certain the UP could, very shortly if not right now, program the parameters of the engine as restored into a computer and instantly come up with a running track diagram specifying which track to run on, how fast to take that curve, etc. Thus they avoid the anecdote recounted by Lloyd Arkinsall in Trains years ago where an engineer flips open an ETT after passing under an overpass with a PRR C1 0-8-0 and then announcing to the fireman "Fireboy, know something? We don't fit through that bridge."

Kelly,

The clearance problems were not limited to her overall size, the major problem is how far the nose overhangs on a curve. If you watch some of those movies of a UP 40xx weaving through the yard, the corner of her front platform routinely approaches the center line of adjacent tracks, and if I remember correctly on a real tight curve in one video the platform almost crossed the far rail.

Rich C.

It is a great honor having Steve Lee work with us here at Wasatch. My comments reflect the friendship and relationship that Steve and I have. We have worked together (at UP and now at Wasatch) for well over 15 years on a professional basis. You tend to get to know a guy after a few years. I am not speaking for Steve. I speak on my own behalf.

Of all of things that Steve is, he is very practical. Be realistic; the difference between the Challenger and a Big Boy is length and weight. Kelly is correct, the 3900's and the 4000's could both take a tighter curve than the 800 can. Look at this as well; on most, if not all modern UP excursions, do they really ever turn the locomotives anyway? No, often they simply run a massive circle, leaving in one direction and returning from the other direction. Turning the Big Boy is a minuscule issue to this project.

Omaha; Steve did in the video what needed to be done (said). There are many people in the UP that despise of the steam locomotives for any given number of reasons. There are likewise managers/officers in Omaha that feel the same. Steve always walked a very tight rope. Keep the money for the program, keep the locomotives operating, keep the people in the individual service units happy, keep the customers happy, minimize main line traffic delays, maintain a budget, keep your head low and stay out of trouble. To be very fair and honest with Steve and his track record......he did all of that the best that he could with what he had.

In 1994 was a Big Boy in the budget? No. Was it practical, NO, are there concerns (now or then with the operation of one) Yes. Sorry that I can not agree with many of you. The position Steve takes in the video and the concerns that exist today remain the same. I would respectfully challenge anybody to watch what Steve said in 1994 and come up with anything concrete that has actually changed. The operating concerns, the limitations, the cost and the resources needed to do this project remain a concern today as much as they did in 1994. The fact that the UP is now taking on the project does not remove the fact that this project faces limitations from a number of sides. By simply restoring something, you have not likewise removed the challenges, concerns or limitations. If any of you have grand ideas that this thing is going to wander the entire system of the UP, you need to reconsider your position. Most of the UP never was the UP and most of today's UP has challenges handling the 844 and the 3985 as they are today. Nothing has changed, except the fact that UP is now committed money, time and resources to doing the restoration. There has not and I doubt that there will be a commitment to visit every town and city on the system when this is done.

I would love to see it run. I am excited to look out my office window, which faces the UP roundhouse and watch it arrive. At the same time, I respect the work that Steve and his team did and they should be honored for the efforts that they made. At the same time, I have said before and I say again, Ed needs to set his course and do the best that he can with what he has. I wish them the best of luck and much success.

Kindly submitted,

John E. Rimmasch
Wasatch Railroad Contractors

wrrc.us

My NALCO Foam Meter is going off the peg with this conversation.......

Edit:

Also, it is interesting how "rumors" get started. In the past couple of weeks, I've reviewed available literature, books, etc on UP steam, mainly out of interest due to my new location. The Kratville book on UP motive power explains the issue perfectly. What kept the 4000s west of Cheyenne was the TURNTABLE length. I think they had to drop a new table in at Cheyenne just to extend their operating territory that far east. The first 4000 delivered to the UP pulled a test freight train west from Omaha. The same can be said for the 3900s, which did not normally operate on the Nebraska Division for the same reason. When they did venture into North Platte, they used a skate-like device to elevate the last wheel on the tender and made it "fit" on the table. Of course, we all know 3985 ventured all over the UP system, beyond its original operating territory. So, my impression is that the turn restriction on the 4000s is primarily a turntable restriction.

Second, even "back in the day" when locomotives were built, clearances and weights were big issues. Railroads compiled the information and kept it. I imagine this information, including any anticipated or realized overhang is still available to UP. I imagine a semi-compotent civil engineer on UP's staff could use the information, along with current track clearances to decide where a 4000 could and could not venture.

Just because someone at your museum jumped into a restoration project without thinking it all the way through does not mean that UP did. They are professionals. Most of us, at best, are rank amateurs.

I spend 42 years on AT&SF/bnsf, most of it engine service. Whenever we had a high/wide load in our train, they supplied clearance info with the track warrants, for the engine crew and the dispatcher. If it was a Schnabble car, Boeing fuselage, Caterpillar scrapers, combines or whatever, we had paperwork to cover the route we used, or were restricted to, as well as any speed restrictions. Some were "bridge stoppers", which meant "stop and proceed on hand signals". They would give the mile post location of each bridge or pot signal where clearance was even close. Some would mention stopping and meeting opposing trains only where there was track separation, and give mile post locations. All this information was fed in someplace, and the computer printer spit it out for us when we came to work. All we had to do was read it and comply, somebody else had it all figured out. I'm sure if anybody has a dead Big Boy in his train, he'll have some "High/Wide" messages to cover the move.