[[/quote]

If you are wrong, I would like to hear the alternative.

What would be useful is a webpage that shows the progress of corrosion and other water damage with passenger cars. This is pretty basic knowledge among those who inspect passenger cars, however I have yet to see a good explanation of how corroision starts and progresses in relationship to car structure. This isn't rocket science - more basic chemistry and physics - and would be really useful for long term preservation planning and budgeting as it would allow a cost benefit calculation. (i.e. $$ for a building now or $$$$ for repairs later)


Tom Cornillie[/quote]




Tom and the forum...

After reading the most recent discussion on the demise of the Queen Mary, I re-read Tom's question about corrosion... where it starts and where it goes .. and thought about it...and thought I might offer a few things.... with a few photographs to substantiate what happens....

In many years of dealing with a few heavyweights, its safe to say the places of greatest concern ( obviously ) are the roof, and the window/belt rail area. The roof seems rather obvious, as like a home, it requires a barrier against moisture. Mechanical fasteners that hold roof sheets together, generally seem to have a greater failure rate then applications where the seams are welded together. However there have been plenty of welded seam roof applications, that say due to sandblasting have failed. Lack of maintenance ( once again ) causes it to happen....

A more complex method of corrosion is through either the windows and or the belt rail. Windows and belt rails vary based upon age of car, modernization etc etc, however no matter if it is a wood sash window or aluminum sash window where the rubber gaskets fail, water falls behind the side sheets, behind the belt rail and down the side sheet to the bottom side sill... ( see photographs )... typically the insulation in the outer walls get wet, and stays wet with the very bottom ( touching the sill) likely always being wet. The photographs show this condition with the insulation removed.

What then happens is the vertical support for the car ( below the belt rail ) rots out at the point of connection ( where it attaches to the bottom horizontal sill and the structure is then compromised ( see photographs )... Also the side sheet itself normally shows corrosion at the bottom of the sheet, as the insulation tends to stay damp at the bottom...

However there has been plenty of occasions where the sill looks to the eye intact, however its not until you remove a portion of the side sheet, that you see it is no longer providing any support other than the side sheet rivets are keeping it in place... It should be noted, that almost all heavyweights that return to private operation in Amtrak service, have had side sheet panels removed to expose conditions that normally cannot be seen without steel being removed....In every case, Amtrak requires a structural engineer to provide signed and sealed drawings for repair ( all outlined in Amtrak's SMP )

I provide a few photographs from CNJ car 97 merely to illustrate the significant points of corrosion, as, at this location, the side sheet were removed ( and never replaced ) ... and it illustrates this condition very well....

What is the solution ? Like any 80-100 year old item that is outside, the simple answer is care .. and then indoor storage....

I once knew a gentleman who would travel the country with foil tape and chimney flashing... doing repairs on cars no matter the condition... Foil tape was intended to cover the rust holes and be a barrier of moisture... Jury is still out how that worked for him....

Didn't want to get too technical, however I thought Tom's question was interesting and I thought the photographs illustrated what ultimately is the main reason for the demise of a once large heavyweight population.


Dean Levin

In addition, here are the conditions that lead to the problems on this particular car.

This would include the lack of any care to the roof, windows and belt rail.


Dean Levin

In conclusion, it all leads to this complete failure of the side sills and vertical supports. A common problem but one that few heavyweights can recover from....


Dean Levin

It seems these cars were designed without any fail safes or backups to a single (and far from fool proof) water proofing strategy. Steel cars have a riveted (sometimes welded) skin and roof, and when any water gets past that, it's trapped inside, and the car's structure is doomed. Not to mention moisture that might be coming from within the car itself in the form of humidity.

Did the car builders not think their products would last long enough for these problems to matter?

Does anyone have experience with trying to create secondary waterproofing, weep holes, or ventilation to improve the chances the steel might survive minor leaks?

The car builders would be astounded that anybody wanted to still use these cars. We're generations past heavyweights already in terms of passenger car technology and engineering now. 40 years of useful in service life would have made them ecstatic.

dave

When the railroads (or Pullman) operated these cars they had in place a system of regular maintenance. They would repair damaged paint and wood as needed. The car's longevity required the careful scrutiny of a benevolent management. These cars were never intended to languish for decades on weed-covered sidings with only foil tape to protect them.

One of the things that led to the excessive rust in the area below the windows was the carpet weather-stripping used on the windows. Strips of wool carpet were tacked on the tops and bottoms of the window sashes. Now...keep that wet for 50 years...and observe what happens. You get a big hole in the vertical surface and then water can pour in every time it rains.

T7

It wasn't a problem. If you 1) keep house steam on the car all winter to keep it dried out, and 2) run it every other day to shake / blow the water out of it. Given that, it will likely last forever.

It's only when someone buys an old car and parks it for say, forty years without even airing it out that it becomes a problem. To my way of thinking, the two most troublesome places are the deck sash / vents on a railroad roof, followed by the window sash.

Any water that leaks through the roof will end up on the floor, which is typically an absorbent material, either wood or composition cement, often with a layer of horsehair below, sealed on the bottom with a sheet steel lining to keep spray from under the car from soaking the insulation. When the car never moves, this leaves the floor forever wet, and that moisture will migrate to the junction of the side sheets and sills, where it evidences itself by making the sheets bulge out in ripples between the rivets. Eventually the sheet will start to perforate above the sill at the floor line.

The most vulnerable portion of the sides is the complicated junction where the posts, covered by the window tracks and sash, penetrate the window sill. This is especially true when the car has wooden sash. Even if the sash don't appear to leak, they become waterlogged, especially the joinery at the lower corners. This constantly wet wood is like a sponge laying on the steel sill, and eventually it will rust through, allowing water to trickle down the posts, even though the windows only look weather beaten, but still intact.

When the 1910 Pullman car INGLEHOME, the former Illini Railroad Club CHIEF ILLINI arrived at IRM in the early seventies, the car looked good, except none of the storm windows would open. Further inspection revealed that the sills in about half the window openings had rusted through in the corners. Without any hope of indoor storage (IRM had no indoor storage at the time) and faced with a huge task to properly remove the sash from inside the car, a rather drastic plan was devised; the glass was salvaged from the deteriorated sash, which were then cut and wrecked out from the outside. The sill / post connections were then needle chipped, primed, and patched with polyester body putty. In the window track area, the best tool for putty application proved to be my finger. After the patching was done, the car was spot primed and painted Pullman green. The inner sash became the weather sash.

As crude as that methodology was, the car spent another twenty or so years outside without further deterioration; eventually indoor storage caught up with needs, and more recently proper repairs have been started. Using the car during those intervening twenty years helped keep it's condition at the forefront of peoples minds, and if the car seemed to be leaking, someone could track down the source of the leak and add some caulking.

Much better than allowing it to turn into a mushroom farm.

In the end, some of the last heavyweights ran perhaps into the early 1960's.. with a few that ran in special train service perhaps a few years longer .. perhaps mid 1960's... looking back that was 50 years ago... the time out of service from the 1960's to today is longer then the time in service ( 1920-30's to the 1960's ) .... Cars came out of service tired and worn, and with the exception of a handful of revenue cars, all have remained outside for 40-50 years now....

Business cars likely in some cases had a better life ( not always ), as there are dozens I can think of that languish without any attention, in both museums and in private hands....

In the end, it all comes down to care. Simply put, someone / some group, responsible for the well being of the object....That is true for a business car, a wood tower, a brick station, or a Fairmont Motor Car...

Cars like the Inglehome made it inside as did a handful of others....because someone / some group cared...

The larger problem ( as I see it ) .. is when the those in possession of the object make no effort to care for the object, therefore taking a one time valuable historic car, and totally neglecting it....

Examples are plentiful....

Take a look ( below ) of the private car Seminole ( discussed on RYPN before ) ... in Knoxville... Year after year, under a NRHS chapter ownership, it falls apart, with no apparent plan to do even the basic maintenance.... Here is a current photograph of it, on public display in Knoxville....It leaves quite the impression.

Look at the car today, wet moss growing out of the belt rail ( taking over the exterior of the car at the belt rail and side sill ) .... A once stately original 1916 private car, owned by A.K Macomber, Railway Express Agency, and Ontario Northland....

Without care, the outcome, will all be the same... ( just like the Queen Mary ).... Unfortunately, just because you possess an item, doesn't mean you can take care of an item....

I say the biggest problem is those who do not offer basic care...


Dean Levin