Mr. Mitchell, speaking equally with respect, I have to disagree with this. I have been in efforts in which I was the respectful one, I tried to make the case, I had the good numbers--and I got the insults, and even some words that could almost be considered threats. Being respectful and polite and factual didn't work.



I used to think that way, and was really feeling bad about it for a long time. What was I doing wrong? Did everything right as far as I could tell--had facts to back up everything I said, was polite, was restrained, was respectful, was logical, and indeed regarded all this as essential, considering I was coming from what would certainly be a minority or "weak" position. What did it get me? Insults, face to face no less, from some of my political "misrepresentatives" and from other citizens.

I don't like to disagree with you on this--but you haven't walked in my shoes.



Sorry, that was intended to be a bit of a joke; thought the line about blood pressure would have made that clear.



Having worked at this and failed, in spite of checking everything over and finding nothing really wrong, I can only conclude that this is something of a black art, or more properly, a talent, like music.

I know I'm short on it. I used to work at a furniture store as a sort of bookkeeper. As part of my training there, I had to learn what all the other departments did, which meant working in them, including the warehouse loading trucks, and on the sales floor.

I still remember my commission from my day as a salesman--all of 36 cents.

In contrast, we had another man who was really good. He sold more furniture than the rest of the sales staff combined. I admit I didn't get to study what he did much (had that other work to do), but from what I could see, all he did was stand around and smoke cigarettes (this was when smoking was more acceptable than it is today). How he did what he did I still don't know, but if it's worth anything, I had plenty of company; the rest of the sales staff didn't do as well as he did either!

We also have to contend with prejudice and biases. Much of this is generational, particularly in regard to the promotion of new rail operations (i.e., modern light rail or commuter services), in which people of a certain age think trains should go the way of the stagecoach. Other people think their highway system is self-supporting financially (it's not, and I can back that up). Attempting to deal with those issues, still with respect and consideration, resulted in people yelling at me and cursing me. I wish I could say I was making this up, but I'm not.

Among the insults was the accusation that I was a Communist! This was in the 1980s, and advocating for transit was considered speaking against the "freedom" of auto travel.

Even worse were the general brush-offs I got from some others. You might as well not exist.

I didn't necessarily expect to win any arguments, but I had hoped people would have at least considered what I had to say--would have treated what I had to say with, well, "respect." Turned out to be a waste of time.



The line already is shared with snowmobilers; they want it to go away, claiming the rails still interfere with snowmobile operation.

As to having to run on what is a government owned right of way, well, that's a card that's there. One wonders how we would manage to purchase a railroad over 100 miles long. I don't know of too many heritage roads of that length that are privately owned; the longest I know about are Grand Canyon (about 60 miles) and Durango & Silverton (45 miles). You might include White Pass & Yukon (110 miles, not all of it in service), but that road is something of a special case, still essentially under its original corporate ownership.

As to being truthful, I think most of us here want to be that. I think most of us here try to be that. That's what's so disappointing--that our honesty seems to be worthless, and that the people in power are willing to buy into the lies.

Ironically, your comment that this is what politics is like and that a public right of way is something to be avoided confirms, in reality, what I've been saying--that real truth, real honesty, trying not to make crazy claims, "gets no respect."

Here's an honest question--what do we do, when we do our best, when we have the facts and present them accurately and respectfully, and we lose anyway? Or, perhaps more importantly, what are we missing that causes us to lose anyway when we do everything right in those areas?

You have to accept the fact that maybe in reality you're "wrong," or at least the majority of folks in your appropriate jurisdiction don't agree with you.

Because you need to be more aggressive. I know if a dump truck was parked on my tracks I would have the FBI, FRA ,State Police, and the media there and press criminal charges. They try to say that the railroad is just for rail fans, call them out for being lier and give the real demographics of your riders (we all know railfans make up a only a tiny portion of riders) and ask if anyone would think that a mother and her kids would rather walk along a dirt road or ride a train. This trail is more of an excuse for people who are into motor sports. Also remind cylest that this trail is only good for mountain biking) I wouldn't want to take a European sports bike with thin tires on a dirt road.

You are 100% correct of course and what I should have said was "not-for-profit tourist railroad". It's been my experience that most tourist outfits have more pressing concerns like keeping the railroad staffed and the trains rolling than paying people for their opinions.



Well sort of. The railroad could relocate, but it is chartered and organized specifically to operate and preserve this particular line. Also, nearly all of it's members and volunteers are committed to the goal of seeing trains running from Utica to Lake Placid. Moving to a different line/venue will likely involve starting from scratch. I think this is one of the things ARTA is hanging it's hat on. They keep saying that they only want the rails north of Thendara/Old Forge, but all of their literature from day one has call from a trail starting in Remsen (the beginning of the state owned trackage). I think they believe that tearing out even some of the tracks will deflate the movement and ultimately lead to the railroads demise (there is some truth to this).

Secondly, NYS will never sell the right of way. This is for two reasons. First, it is viewed as a valuable resource. This is why it was purchased from the Penn Central in 1974 and scrapping halted (about 3/4 of a mile in Raybrook was actually torn up, then reinstalled). Secondly, and probably more importantly, NYS law prohibits lands owned by the state within the "Blue Line" of the Adirondack Park from being sold calling for them to remain "forever wild". Of course there have been "land swaps" in the past, but these are few and far between, and never without controversy. The "Remsen to Lake Placid Travel corridor", as the railroad is referred to at the state level, has evaded the "reversion" process most state land in the Adirondacks go through as a result of it's classification as a Travel Corridor (kind of like the highway). Many believe that tearing out the rails will be the first domino to fall in the process that will lead to the ROW becoming "forever wild".

Just for the sake of thoroughness, in regards to the third option: The Adirondack Scenic/Adirondack Railway Preservation Society has a very good working relationship with their "land lord", NYSDOT. It was not always this way though. Throughout the 90's the relationship was excellent. In the early 2000's it got a little rocky when the Railroad had a general manager that seemed hell bent on putting it out of business (having three different phone providers at four locations, leasing locomotives unnecessarily, alienating volunteers on a seemingly daily basis). Since that time it has greatly improved, through no small amount of effort by the current management of the Railroad. I would say the relationship is as good as it's been since 97', when the major expansions in operations started. Also having listened to all the debates and reports, I get the strong impression that the "higher ups" at the DOT are in favor of maintaining, and restoring, the railroad.

This leads us to the fact that was already stated, that this will come down to straight (no pun intended) politics. It scares me that our governor refuses to take a side in the issue when he has no problem throwing his opinions and policies around on every other topic. This leads me to believe that he will wait to see which side has more vote-carrying support and then pronounce his "decision" closer to the election. This is of course pure speculation on my part.

A very good commentary refuting the "spin" ARTA has put on ARPS's tax document:

http://www.adirondackdailyenterprise.com/page/content.detail/id/541473/-----the-rest-of-the-story-.html?nav=5041

At that point, you have to realize that life isn't always fair. Also, you have to realize that bloviating on an internet forum and engaging in comment fights on news articles from several states away probably isn't how one changes minds and promotes any cause. You say that you get no respect? We don't know you other than your writings. How can we respect someone whom we cannot evaluate?

I my experience I have had this happen quite a few times arguing for or against traffic issues in the jurisdiction I work in. Sometimes political and personal opinion WILL trump all the data, facts, and findings you provide. Same is true in other areas in life. That is why you need to pick your battles. And when your side or idea loses even though you had a legitimate argument you need to decide if the fight it worth continuing or you write it off and regain strength for the next fight.

And never (as long as it is possible) burn your bridges. Go away quietly or reach across the aisle and offer your help if possible. These same people may re-appear at some point in the future.

Forgive me if there is any misunderstanding. I'm not trying to start a fight, although I do admit to expressing a great deal of frustration at persistently coming out on the losing end.

And I'll mention it isn't just about me. Think of this subject of this thread, and of the Catskill Mountain, and of others, including the Saratoga & North Creek and the Western Maryland Scenic. Frankly, we shouldn't be having this discussion at all. We shouldn't be dealing with false statements from the opposition at all.

Maybe, having been insulted and lied about makes me too sensitive to those who face the same thing, with more to lose.

As much as anything, what I am trying to do--maybe trying too hard to do--is to emphasize that no matter how good we are, no matter how much we do, there will be people who will oppose us at every turn. The trail crowd in New York is the most notable example, but it's not the only one--think of the NIMBY crowd.

No amount of sugar-coating, no amount of saying "it's really all up to you," can deny that, as you noted, things can be terribly unfair--and that sometimes, you wish you hadn't tried anything at all because of the way you were beaten.



That's what I ran into--and it's what the Catskill Mountain people have had to deal with, too. It's also the threat the Adirondack Scenic faces, it's the threat Western Maryland Scenic had to deal with.

Frankly, those of us who do run our heritage railroads have their hands full just running their railroads and paying bills. This is not something we need--but, yes, I know we're stuck with it anyway. And we have lost too often to these forces.



Going away quietly is what I've essentially been forced to do. Part of it was certain health reasons (among them a susceptibility to heat exhaustion), but part of it was also just getting tired of banging my head against a wall with nothing to show for it.

Getting back in? Maybe--but in some cases, this literally can mean waiting for someone to die first, or at least retire. Sounds extreme, I know. . .but I would bet some of you have faced just that.



Perhaps this should be reworded, perhaps it even should be in another thread--but since it's here, and since it seems to have garnered some interest, we'll stay here for the time being. . .how do we become more effective? How do we avoid losing, how do we avoid things like what the people at the Adirondack Scenic and the Catskill Mountain are dealing with now? Is there some secret that some of us miss? Or is it what I think it is, something we have to deal with, something we have to learn how to fight?

I do note that it seems to have been easier to have gone into heritage railroading in the past than now, for a variety of reasons. Think of how hard it would be to duplicate what Strasburg has become if you were starting from scratch today, compared with how things worked out for them starting in 1958-1960.

Do some of us, perhaps including the people of Catskill Mountain and Adirondack Scenic, simply live and work in the wrong place--and the wrong time?

Well, if nothing else, somebody should give the Catskill Mountain RR folks some fair major kudos for dealing with adversity in a positive manner. No, they've not conducted a picture perfect campaign, but they certainly seem to be turning the tide of public opinion--which is the manna of every politician alive.

We can sit on the sidelines and carp, and sometimes that IS all we can do. We can also focus positive attention on the operations in danger (for whatever reason). That may mean setting our egos aside (tough call on the Internet) but the payback can be immense.

Remember, the public doesn't like grandstanding or drama, neither do politicians. If it looks good and makes people feel good and doesn't cost money (CMRR vs trail), it stands a much better chance of survival out there. Will that course always come out well--sadly no, but I cannot think of a more effective strategy to pursue.

Michael Seitz
Missoula MT

Pulled this from another forum. It is a breakdown (2012 I think) of ARTA's financials pulled from this link:

http://www.charitiesnys.com/RegistrySearch/show_details.jsp?id=



A bit of an eye opener. That's a lot of money spent trying to put a tourist railroad out of business.

You know, I tried to do an Op-Ed that called ARTA on those same points, but it was turned down by the editorial director... Call me a conspiracy theorist, but I think the editorial board at the Adirondack Daily Enterprise is biased towards ARTA when the volume of pro-trail and pro-rail opinions are quantified...

That is surprising. The Adirondack Daily Enterprise has been pretty neutral on the subject (as the media is SUPOSED to be). Maybe there is starting to be outside pressure that those of us outside the Saranac Lake/Lake Placid area aren't seeing. Now the Adirondack Explorer is another story. That paper is owned by a high up ARTA Director and has been totally biased.

Its almost what I said earlier in this topic!, there were some difficulties with ASRR, however these issues have been rectified and I just knew the facts ARTA claimed were BOGUSS!!!,

Never believe everything you read or hear Especially from the Press! the fact checking in this day and age is beyond piss poor!, If the people want the truth then get the facts from the horses mouth, ASRR has very little if anything to hide in regards to this matter

and BTW --- all organizations will make mistakes and generally learn and fix them, for that matter any business would try to do the same, as for Government well that's another subject

Well, keeping track of things, here's a commentary on the decline of snowmobiles over the last 10 years:

http://adirondackdailyenterprise.com/pa ... l?nav=5041

To no one's surprise, Jim McCulley didn't think much of it.

"This is funny,the usual rail Foamer from out of state. But his analysis of snowmobile registrations is funny for several reasons. First he points to lessening in snowmobile registrations in 2011 which was a year with no snow. While he comments that 116,000 in 2012 is not a huge number they still spent 848 million in NY and 242 million in the Adirondacks. That's 242 times more than the train’s best case scenario. What he really misses is that Western NY has lost 4 million in population since 1990. Utica went from 100,000 residence in the seventy's (when the train stopped running) to 60,000 today a 40% decrease. So who is going to ride the train? So snowmobiling has done better than the rest of the population. He also forgets the numbers of rental fleets for snowmobiles since the 1990’s have increased dramatically.

"His last line about railroad ridership increasing is comical. Since it was declining until they started double counting the same passenger. The fact that they can't pay their bills on the number of passengers they have says it all."

A fellow named Gary Broderick had this to say, also on the ARTA site:

"One of the takeaways from that letter to the editor for me was he didn't address any users but snowmobilers-we're talking about a multi-use year round trail."

Apparently in response to what was seen as a snowmobile-only criticism, another poster named Hope Frenette posted this USA Today article on "Other winter trail users."

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nati ... s/5737585/

You do understand, that by continually poking the snowmobile lobby, you are improving their ability to handle criticism and to provide more cogent arguments against the railroad.

That may not be a good thing in the long term. You may want to phrase your arguments in a more pro-rail stand. It might not be a bad idea to become a member of the railroad http://www.adirondackrr.com/membership.html and volunteer in their social media campaign.

It's certainly possible that our sideline commentary could be creating more problems for the ASR than we realize.

Michael Seitz
Missoula MT