NYC and SCL Budd observation cars. 16th St. at Rhode Island St. San Francisco. Landlocked on former WPRR.

The problem is that there was no Budd cars in use on the Artrain in 1982, only the former B&O coaches. Photos prove this. What is more, NYC 48 was photographed still in the NYC livery with a black roadname plate in 1983...

http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2108508

Again from the B&O Museum blog...



The problem with these statements are that the car was still unrestored in Saint Paul, MN. (Kasten is/was located in Edwardsville,Ill.), in 2006 and 2007. How could the car have been traded to MARC when it was still awaiting restoration in 2007 and still in Saint Paul after partial restoration until at least 2009?

http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3441718
http://abpr.railfan.net/abprphoto.cgi?february06/02-05-06/ARTX105_2006-02-04_StPaul_MN_a.jpghttp://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=689073

Also, the car was never used at all on the Artrain... the train was discontinued before the car was finished!!!

Earl Leatherberry mentions on one of the shots that he took of the car that the car was in St. Paul until 2009, at least, still incomplete... and was posted "For Sale" in 2010...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/23711298@N07/2570795921

According to the list of Amtrak 800-series cars posted the Short Line Enterprises the car that MARC had was not #48 but rather was NYC #50, which became KCS #46 and then #43 before being sold, at which time it was restored as NYC "#48", receiving 800-series number 800083.

Prewar car, but CBQ "Silver Streak" is a Budd flattop obs survivor, built 1936, non-articulated car, now at 9300 Highway 290 West, Austin, Texas with two other former Denver Zephyr/Texas Zephyr cars being restored, all three cars moved last fall from Hill City South Dakota for me by Topfuel.

Santa Fe RR historian John McCall went for me to Denver and Golden in November to capture archival images of these three cars from the Otto Perry collection and Denver Post collection, especially. He met there with Hol Wagner on my behalf, and received from him some good images and suggestions. John also in December obtained for me copies of everything from the DeGolyer library at SMU, and if you will search "Texas Zephyr" in Flickr , setting filter to "recent images" you will see that within days after he left the DeGolyer Library, the library staff posted on that website some of the images they digitized for me as a result of his visit. Remarkable images. Next source for investigation is the collection of photographs made for the 1948 Granger Road CBQ corporately funded history book, about 3000 images, with about 500 of them now online, at the Newberry Library, some good interior shots found there in the digitized collection. Too cold and snowy to ask John and his wife to go to Chicago right now to check on the rest of that collection. If only there were an online index to the Budd builders photos at Strasburg, it would sure help us out in the interior restoration effort, I would like to ask him to go there when it warms up. 10,000+ images, it will take them years to process that collection, I fear. And, we quest for the holy grail, original blueprints, hopefully surviving at Thyssen-Krupp but apparently not accessible.

- William Osborn, Austin, TX william(at)texasenergylaw(dot com) if any suggestions...

Thanks, Stephen, for clarifying the history of FEC Bay Biscayne!



Thanks, Chris, for the info on SAL #6604!



I'm wondering if Artrain acquired two of the NYC Lot #2174 cars, one of those being the #48 (from Bill Jenkins) and needing only one of the two for their traveling exhibit train, sold the #48 to Kasten Railcar. This could have led to the confusion regarding the identity of ARTX #105, the number assigned to the NYC car that they did retain. What's interesting is that Stan Garner (in his list of cars that have carried Amtrak #800xxx-series numbers http://www.movie-trains.com/pvlist.html) lists the history of the #800086 (the car at the B&O Museum) as such: NYC #50 to KCS #46 to #43 to private ownership #48. The NYC #50 was renumbered to KCS #46, but became the #40 in 1963, not #43. Randall lists the sale of #50 by KCS to a William B. Stewart.



This car was recently discussed as a surviving car south of the border: http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=31449 (see Topfuel's post on page #4).



The Wingate Brook was sold by Amtrak to American Rail Excursions (#800487) before being acquired by Les Kasten.



The Babbling Brook was formerly based at Coopersville, MI, while owned by Tyler Robbins, who also owned ex-UP business car #120 Navy, which was also based at Coopersville.



The Fall Brook went into private ownership as the Monterey and was later acquired by Casablanca Fan as the City of Pasadena. Ansco Investments acquired the car from Casablanca Fan as D&RGW Colorado. Ansco also acquired CRI&P #364 Duncan (City of Industry) from Casablanca Fan as D&RGW Iowa (later Utah). Ansco later sold the Colorado to a private owner and the car received a Sokolski Zephyr drumhead while still painted in D&RGW Aspen Gold. The car was later acquired by Kasten Railcar and burned while in storage. The car was then stored at Gateway Coach before being parted out and scrapped.



I wondered why Amtrak didn't purchase these, as SCL was a main contributor to the fleet. Thanks, Jerry, for the info!

Here's the rest of the prewar cars:

Round End Cars:

Chicago, Burlington & Quincy:

One Car, 1934, Lot #94600-50, 40 seat coach 12 seat parlor observation, Pioneer Zephyr:

CB&Q #570 (no name) sold in 1960 to the Museum of Science and Industry in Chicago--see here: http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5451/7143272805_cae2192c81_o.jpg (David Wilson photo) (click once to enlarge)

Two Cars, 1935, Lot #96055-99, 24 seat coach 24 seat parlor observation, Texas Zephyr:

CB&Q #571 (no name) wrecked in 1944

CB&Q #102 (no name) retired in 1956 and scrapped

One Car, 1935, Lot #96200, 40 seat coach 16 seat parlor observation, Mark Twain Zephyr:

CB&Q #572 Tom Sawyer sold in 1958 to the Midwest Central Railroad (Mt. Pleasant, IA)

Two Cars, 1936, Lot #964, 24 seat parlor 10 seat lounge observation, Twin Zephyr:

CB&Q #225 Juno later transferred to the Nebraska Zephyr sold in 1968 to Illinois Railway Museum--see here: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2652202 (Mike Woodruff photo), and here: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2791387 (Tim Fennell photo)

CB&Q #226 Jupiter later transferred to the Nebraska Zephyr sold in 1968 to the Civic Plaza National Bank (Kansas City) resold (when?) to Saudi Arabia

Two Cars, 1936, Lot #965, 10 seat parlor 31 seat buffet lounge observation, Denver Zephyr:

CB&Q #230 Silver Flash transferred to C&S #640 in 1957 and reassigned to the Texas Zephyr sold in 1965 to the Civic Plaza National Bank (Kansas City) resold (when?) to Saudi Arabia

CB&Q #231 Silver Streak transferred to C&S #641 in 1957 and reassigned to the Texas Zephyr sold in 1965 to Dick McKinley (Denver) to Black Hills Central Railroad sold 2013 to William Osborn (Austin, TX)



Thanks, William, for the info on Silver Streak! On a side note, what were the other two CB&Q cars you acquired from BHCR?

One Car, 1939, Lot #96104, 24 seat diner 22 seat parlor observation, General Pershing Zephyr:

CB&Q #301 Silver Star sold in 1968 to the Mt. Newman Mining Company in Australia as The Sundowner to BHP Billiton Iron Ore Railroad (Port Hedland)

One Car, 1939, Lot #96110, 24 seat diner 22 seat parlor observation, Silver Streak Zephyr:

CB&Q #300 Silver Spirit later reassigned to the Burlington Zephyr sold in 1968 to the National Railroad Museum--see here: http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4087/4837161325_3f52d69db9_o.jpg (Larry Darling photo) (click once to enlarge), and here: http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2016/2168023200_fc46773e80_o.jpg (JS Observer photo) (click once to enlarge)

Two Cars, 1940, Lot #96113, 32 seat diner 23 seat lounge observation, Texas Zephyr:

FW&D #270 Silver Tray sold in 1967 to CHP as Ciudad Juarez reportedly used on Copper Canyon Tours

C&S #750 Silver Bowl sold in 1966 to James Olson (Denver)

One Car, 1940, Lot #96117, 24 seat diner 22 seat parlor observation, general pool:

CB&Q #302 Silver Hours tranferred to the Sam Houston Zephyr in 1944 sold in 1968 to the South Texas Railroad Historical Society to Galveston Railroad Museum

One Car, 1940, Lot #96120, 24 seat diner 22 seat parlor observation, general pool:

CB&Q #303 Silver Fountain sold in 1968 to G.A. Avril Company (Cincinnati)

Denver & Rio Grande Western:

Two Cars, 1941, Lot #97102, 8 Section 2 Chamberette 12 seat buffet lounge observation:

D&RGW #M-1 David Moffat retired in 7/1942 and scrapped in 1945

D&RGW #M-2 Heber C. Kimball retired in 7/1942 and scrapped in 1945

Chicago, Rock Island & Pacific:

Two Cars, 1937, Lot #972, 1 Drawing Room 36 seat bar parlor observation, seating reduced to 32 in 1948:

CRI&P #450 Peoria (1st) renamed Nebraska in 1953 sold in 1967 to the Texas Tank Car Works (San Angelo)

CRI&P #451 L.M. Allen sold in 1962 to Joliet Railroad Equipment Company

Four Cars, 1937, Lot #972, 28 seat coach 24 seat bar parlor observation, all cars reconfigured to 16 seat bar 20 seat parlor observation in 1948:

CRI&P #452 Centennial reconfigured to 28 seat coach 20 seat bar parlor in 1953 sold in 1959 to W. Silver & Company

CRI&P #453 Pikes Peak renamed Lone Star State in 1948 wrecked in 1948 at Kremlin, OK

CRI&P #454 Minnesota reconfigured to 28 seat coach 20 seat bar parlor in 1953 reconfigured to 28 seat coach 27 seat parlor in 1957 sold in 1965 to IBM and converted to an instruction car sold in 1965 to the Landlow Warehouse (South Bend, IN) to restaurant and painted as NYC (Elkhart, IN)

CRI&P #455 Missouri reconfigured to 28 seat coach 20 seat bar parlor in 1955 reconfigured to 28 seat coach baggage #70 in 1956 retired in 1965 and sold to Purdy Company

Boston & Maine-Maine Central:

One Car, 1935, Lot #96001-54, 32 seat coach 12 seat parlor, Flying Yankee:

B&M/MEC #6000 sold in 1957 to Edaville Railroad (South Carver, MA) to Flying Yankee restoration group and located on the Hobo Railroad

Blunt End Cars:

Seaboard Air Line:

Three Cars, 1940, Lot #96515, 30 seat coach 24 seat lounge:

SAL #6500 to SCL #5800 to Amtrak #3800 sold 2/1981 to Western New York Railway Historical Society as Marie McGrath

SAL #6501 to SCL #5801 to Amtrak #3801 sold 11/1977 to C.W. McKinley

SAL #6502 to SCL #5802 to Amtrak #3802 sold 11/1977 to J. Lynch as Pacific Grove (#800450)

Sources:

1. "Streamliner Cars Volume Two: The Budd Company" by W. David Randall (RPC Publications, 1981)

2. "Amtrak by the Numbers" by David C. Warner and Elbert Simon (White River Productions, 2011)

3. Information from the Burlington Route Historical Society's CB&Q lightweight passenger car roster at: http://www.burlingtonroute.com/docs/rosters/stainlessnumber.html

4. Information from the Burlington Route Historical Society's list of surviving CB&Q passenger cars at: http://www.burlingtonroute.com/docs/rosters/remain_passenger.html

5. Information from the Rock Island Technical Society's list of surviving CRI&P passenger cars at: http://www.rits.org/www/equipment/ripassdisp.html

Further info on the two cars in San Francisco:
New York Central 60 (later Amtrak 3870)
Seaboard Air Line 6602 (later Seaboard Coast Line 5842 and later Amtrak 3342)

They are coupled back to back and used as office space at 300 De Haro Street for a flooring contractor, an IT consultant, and a precious metals dealer. In 2009, the landlord was looking to "restore" their interiors, but I'm not sure what happened. They are located alongside the former ROW of the Western Pacific. The ROW has been slowly reabsorbed into the urban fabric, and line alongside these cars has been housing for some time.

Other two cars moved from Hill City South Dakota were Silver Beam and Silver Lining.

http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/r ... sg-3253037 has many photographs of the move. I can't make it a hot link, there must be something to the cut and paste that I am not doing correctly on home Mac laptop, can do hot links from office Dell computer with no problem...

- Wm Osborn

Well it did hot link after all...

Thanks, William, for the info!

Whatever it's original number, the Budd round-end obs car painted in MARC colors was at the Baltimore Riverside yard office in the Fall and Winter of 2000-2001 when I was an engineer trainee. I know that for a fact. I might have a photo of it there somewhere.

KCS 41 is part of Southern Belle Antiques at the corner of Charter St. and Race St. in Jackson, LA.

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPi ... ?id=979874
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPi ... ?id=979885
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPi ... id=2580483
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPi ... ?id=979886
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPi ... ?id=979884

Re: KCS cars

NYC 48-51 became KCS 44-47. KCS sent the cars to Pullman in the 60's to have an 8 seat lunch counter installed, new disc brakes, etc, and they renumbered them as they were shopped. 44 became 43, 45 became 42, 46 became 40, and 47 became 41.

KCS service ended in 1969 and the cars were sold off in 1970-71.

40 was sold to a James Whitcomb Riley fan club out of Indianapolis and ran on the back of the train to Chicago alot, then sold to James Strates carnival in Taft, Fl. back of the train to Chicago alot, then sold to James Strates carnival in Taft, Fl. Don't know if car ever ran in the carnival train, when I saw it at Taft in '76 it was stationary being used as an office. Sold late 70's to John Hickman and Phil Jenkins. Kept at B&O museum. Phil flew down here in summer 1980 and we removed parts from KCS 43(with permission, see below). They brought the car down here to New Orleans to visit on what was probably its first long distance trip and I got to ride her but only in from Slidell on the back of the Crescent. I flew to Baltimore in late 1980 and worked on the car for one day(ruined a jacket from battery acid splatter). They used the car on excursions out of Washington, and as an extra fare charter lounge out of Chicago. I believe at one point the car was seized by Amtrak for non payment of money owed. The guys sold the car to Les Kasten who said he picked it up at the Amtrak yard in New Haven, CT. I think this is the car that briefly ran on the Branson Scenic and Arkansas and Missouri as a visitor. As previously stated he traded the car to MARC for some RDCs and car became MARC 1. Was not used much, was loaned to B&O museum group and eventually donated to them. This car was named "NYC 48" for most of its post KCS career, but it was really NYC 50.

KCS 41 was sold to Bill Dodd, former Lt Gov of Louisiana, it was taken by rail to McManus, LA on the IC and then trucked to his farm just west of Clinton, LA. It took two days to get it place with house jacks. He said he bought it as a playhouse for his grandchildren. It was also used for entertaining and was quite a landmark(could be seen from the road). He died in 1991 and his son sold it to Leroy Harvey, a Jackson, LA businessman in 1994. It took 8 hours to move the car about 10 miles down the road and set it in place using an 80 ton hydraulic crane. It was placed in front of one of his businesses, now named Southern Belle Antiques. The interior was redone and transformed into a tearoom. I think the car is rented out, not open regular hours. It is quite a landmark on the main drag of Jackson.

KCS 42 was sold to Brewton Lumber Co outside of Winnfield, LA. KCS served this large mill in a big way with a 3 mile long spur off the main line at Carla. They just used a panel track to roll the car in place by their offices. They put the lounge furniture in their offices, and set up a conference table in the car. They used it for meetings and a lunch room. They just called out the local Carrier repair man to service the A/C when needed. Brewton Lumber sold this mill to Louisiana Pacific and several years later the mill was shut down. In the 90's they moved the car to their mill in Urania, LA. It was placed directly across the road from the main entrance to the plant, across from the guardhouse. They built a deck around it on one side and used it for entertaining. There is not much in Urania and a good restaurant would be very far away. Plant was sold to Georgia Pacific and a few years later they closed it down(2004?). Car was safe because the guards were still across the road 24 hours a day. In 2008, car was moved to the GP mill in Gloster, MS via a two day road trip. They also brought a little critter loco from the Urania plant. Gloster plant closed down a few years later and in 2012 it burned. KCS car was parked away from the buildings and was unscathed. I think some lumber executive kept changing jobs and was taking the car with them each time. In 2012 car was sold at auction and bought by Jon Clark. It(and the critter) were trucked to Metairie, LA, to the KCS yard and parked next to the former KCS diesel shop(which Pete Messina leases for his passenger car shop). Jon was supposed to come to New Orleans in fall 2012 to work on car to get it ready for freight movement, but its been sitting where it sits for over a year and a half. There are two other round end cars at Pete's shop...NYC Bonnie Brook(lives there) and NYC Sandy Creek(they are coupled together vestibule to vestibule)....Pete is turning Sandy Creek into a new car for the NS business train and it will retain its name.

KCS 43 was sold to Wiley Johnson who turned it and a caboose and a few boxcars into the Red Caboose restaurant on Arnoult Rd in Metairie. It was quite successful for a while and so when he went to open several more locations, he went back to KCS to buy the others he has seen but they were already sold. The rail themed restaurant fad was soon over and eventually the restaurant closed. It was used for a few other businesses, but eventually the railcars were removed. 43 was sold to J.F. Williams, I believe an attorney or architect in Texas. The car was trucked out from the restaurant, but I was told it was taken to a local rail yard and probably put on a flatcar. The new owner had the KCS paint stripped off and taken back to shiny stainless steel, it was put back on the rails and all the damage that had been done turning it into a restaurant was fixed(large holes cut in roof and floor for a/c ducts etc). He named it Starlight 48. I saw one picture of it once but never heard about it operating. In the late 90's it was sold to Artrain. One spotter saw it moving in a UP freight train. It was carefully sealed up for movement with windows securely covered. It ended up at the MSP Amtrak station where a car rebuilder must lease a spur track there. It was worked on for years, little by little, I think Artrain had the work done as money became available. It was never used by Artrain. They decided to do their traveling by truck, and the car was sent to Ann Arbor(their headquarters) and put up for sale. At last price, $99,000, there were no takers and so they took it off the market and decided to use it for an office. It is parked outside their offices on live rail. When it first got to Ann Arbor it may have been down the track a ways unwatched, and the graffiti artists really did a number on it.

Thanks, Greg, for the info on NYC #48-#51/KCS #44-#47/#40-#43!

What is it with people decorating the interior of their Budd Obs car like a French whorehouse??? Melco labs did just about the same thing to the Fort Benning back when. Sickening.

Thanks to Greg for sorting out the KCS mess. Am I right that more than one of these cars got smooth panels or panel on the rear end? I'm not sure that I've ever seen that done on a non NYC car -- wonder if there was a problem?

Does anyone have any ideas on the FEC car Hobe Sound? I could swear I've seen or read something on its whereabouts, but I can't remember where or the details.

Thanks to everyone for the updates!

ETA

Actually that nut that owned the Fort Benning while it was in Charlotte, North Carolina did that to the interior. It was inspired by the interiors you saw in railroad presidential cars from the mid 1800's. Think back to some of the old western movies and TV shows like Little House on the Prairie that showed interiors of 1880's era office cars.

Heck, during the 1950s and 1960s people decorated their ex-railroad, 1920s built business cars in "early french whorehouse."

And then when they could not run them, the cars were donated to the nearby museum which now had car that did not represent its original design and purpose. John White lamented this in an article in the 1981 issue of IA , annual Journal of The Society for Industrial Archeology.