I submit the above as Exhibit A in support of my previous post. ' Nuff said.

Happy Easter. Ross Rowland

Again, keeping to the topic of the thread: it doesn't bode well for steam-locomotive operators who want to operate excursions over the contemporary NJT. That is sad, because it represented about the last chance for steam to be operated at high track speed on anything like a regular basis. Would I like to run a service that shows that steam can hold its own performance-wise with the most modern diesel power? Certainly! But is there still adequate counterflow track capacity to permit it? And what is the current cost of insurance that would cover the high-speed operation?

Does everyone recognize the points that were made here, about (1) equipment limitations on 'enjoyment of the experience', particularly closed-window cars; (2) the need to run multiple excursions to recoup fixed costs; (3) falling revenue as the charm of the experience wears off over the multiple trips. Yes, I'd like to see one of these trips run, but let's be honest, I wouldn't want to be sitting in the one place I can't get a good look or feel for the important aspects of high-speed steam running. Could a consist be made up with openable windows -- I hear ADM now, saying 'rip that weird green carpet out of those cars in Pottstown' ;-} -- and used instead of NJT stock? well, let's pile the Ossa of all THOSE costs on the Pelion of what 614 already needs to thrive, and the required margins get considerably worse...

The T1 is something of a special case in that tourist operation and railfan excursions are not a prominent part of the reason for construction, and there are other sources of income aside from ticket sales and general nostalgia when the locomotive operates after that. There is also specific donation-based support (under the 501(c)(3) nonprofit Trust) for much of the operations infrastructure and expenses, and this is built into the feasibility and operating plans. I do not think fantrip operations alone would pay upkeep on the T1, let alone pay off the design and construction expense; there are other sources of income for a 'wicked cool' locomotive, but even those might not, alone, cover the gap.

Replicating other locomotives remains, as it ought to be, primarily a labor of love. The case for a 'modern' enthusiast's engine was made in the land where that would be most feasible (Britain), by a team of their most competent people (the 5AT group). It bears noting -- and I intend no disrespect by saying this -- that nobody has built one using their excellent methodology, let alone to their design...

growing up as a kid climbing on Royal Hudson 2839 and spending the majority of my teen years at the W&W, WK&S and BM&R I have seen a fall off of steam fans, over the past 20 years my father and I have been running full size steam launches and I run boat meets eastern Pennsylvania. over the past few years I have seen a growth that is substantial, there is currently 2 teenagers building steam launches (not models), I also go to traction engine shows I have seen a growth in youngsters being involved and or owning something steam powered. then if you look at the growth of steam loco's getting up and running for the first time in 20-30 year or more I have to whole heartedly disagree with Sir Ross Rowland, albeit he has his right to his opinion. I think the rebirth of steam is on it's way.

What Steamdon-Jr. points out leads to a poignant reminder of part of why railroading suffers compared to other transportation hobbies.

You can own and operate, within certain restrictions (licensing, road rules, etc.), cars, trucks, tractors, cabin cruisers, yachts, motorcycles, gliders, snowmobiles, sailboats, and even airplanes. But you absolutely need someone else's cooperation and permission to own and run a locomotive, passenger rail car, or train, unless you are JJJ, Andrew Muller, etc., and even those "tycoons" bear certain responsibilities along with their "toys." Whether it's steam or not is only a small part of the problem, as Ed Ellis, Bennett Levin, etc. would probably be happy to tell you at great length. But a live steam train model or steam launch? It's like owning a classic sports car--troublesome, but available when the mood strikes.

We went through a long period, thanks to a lot of operations and operators (Rowland included), when mainline steam was "available" to the general public after the official end of steam on American railroads: the CB&Q outings, Reading Rambles, various High Iron trips, AFT, Chessie Steam Specials, 4449, 1522, CN 6218 and 6060, BM&R, and throughout it all UP and SR/NS steam in the background or as major support. Then it all slammed to a stop. NS quit at the end of 1994, but has now started back up--on something of a "sub-contracted" basis so far. UP scaled back after 3985 went in for shopping--"Big Boy" notwithstanding, it's a shadow of what it was for a while.

The N.J. trips whose mention started this thread gave many of us hope that such a program could spread, and that next 614 & Co., or another "big steam" operator like the 261 or Ft. Wayne or 1225 groups, could repeat the same thing elsewhere, or be a formula for similar trips by the likes of Chicago's METRA, Philly's SEPTA, Maryland's MARC, etc. It didn't happen. It could have, but didn't. Something either went wrong, or didn't add up, or only one party was willing to "play along" for the time they did. You're telling us that Metra wouldn't have let a big steamer run on the "racetrack" to Aurora? Or that there isn't room on the line to run a weekend steam train from Philly to Harrisburg and back? Or from Baltimore or D.C. to Harper's Ferry or Martinsburg? The cab signals were there on 614, after all. The only other excuses I've ever heard involve either track capacity issues, technological mandates such as automatic train stop or the like, and/or "personal attacks" upon the financial aspects of the operation in New Jersey, and I can't verify those, and we won't get confirmation from any source here.

And I'm sorry, but I cannot accept negative "doom and gloom" excuses of "we can't find steam guys anymore" from someone who has spent years verbally attacking anyone else who cynically questioned rosy forecasts and proposals about other steam projects. Can the moderators please confirm that "co614's" account wasn't hacked by someone else?

Maybe I missed it, its been a long day, but I believe the word 'insurance' is missing from the above post. It seems that most of today's railroads aren't run by operating people, but by risk analysts and the bean-counters.

The "insurance" issue was obviously "handled" by NJ Transit for the 1990s 614 trips, which is the subject of this thread. If I remember right, the 614 Port Jervis trips were downright affordable by the standards of mainline excursions in that era.

If that changed--either spiked in price, or was put upon the steam operator by NJ Transit, or whatever--that would have led the list of reasons/"excuses" given.

It did not.

Insurance was one of the sub issues that ended the NJT program. The biggest by far issue was as stated above the fact that we wore the market out. In the 3rd. and final year we had reduced the price to $ 59 for adults and at that price we needed a nearly full train ( 1200 pssgrs.) to pay the direct costs.

NJT required us to provide the first $ 10M in liability coverage and had we operated beyond the 3rd. year that was to be increased to $ 25 M which would have resulted in a substantial increase in premium.

As each year passes the steam fraternity gets smaller and smaller and aside from corporately sponsored programs like the NS and UP projects, or national special events like the American Freedom Train/Yellow Ribbon Express I'm sorry to say that I doubt there will be any other mainline steam.

Hope I'm proven wrong.

Ross Rowland

Pardon me for sticking my nose into this, but I think a nationally sponsored train hauled by a dedicated locomotive, say 614, for a specific purpose would "stoke up" a heck of a lot of interest in learning steam, beefing up active personnel, etc.

I suggested for consideration once before, a train outfitted with proper cars, to bring in blood and platelet donors for the American Red Cross, would be an amazing attraction. Schedule stops in appropriate hub cities, advertise it heavily, well in advance, schedule donations by date, time, and purpose (double-red, platelet, whole blood), and lot of publicity.

The train would have processing and storage cars as well as those for taking donations. Snacks in the diner, post-donation.

There is a daily shortage of blood and blood products in this country. Start the planning and procuring hardware and fixing up the locomotive at the same time. Rebuild through private donations of foundations or companies. Boston to L.A., and you've done something spectacularly great for the nation, brought in individuals, saved lives, made politicians and railroad executives look good.

All I want is a day long cab ride in return for the idea.

I have to say it boils down to this, regardless of your opinion:
*Ticket sales for the 614 trips DID decline over time, as I understand it.
*Even though some time has passed, there is a hesitancy to attempt it again, in case the ticket sales don't cover the crushing 'startup' costs of getting 614 running and over there again.
*There's also a concern - whether you believe it or not, it still IS a legit concern - that interest in steam might be waning to a degree.
*Ross would love little more than getting 614 back into steam and running her at mainline speeds (an opinion he's voiced countless times elsehwere).
So, you can't really argue that the above points have no validity. I can't fault the man for not wanting to make one mother of a leap, financially, into a shaky market at best...

Let me add to Brother Bishop's list:

• Mr. Rowland either lacks the money to do comprehensive repairs to 614 or doesn't believe it to be a wise investment currently, or other reasons known only to him.
• Repairs to get 614 into operation in 2015 or beyond are not going to happen absent a "for-profit" operation plan to recoup some or all of the repair costs.
• A "for-profit" excursion operation similar to 614/NJT will not happen absent a workable 614 or other locomotive and a firm proposal.

So: No plan without loco, no loco without plan.
Is anyone playing the lottery to win 614's repair costs and/or purchase price?

Now, having said that, there ARE limited operations happening out there: 3751, 4449, 765, 630, 4501, etc. And some of them have gotten pretty fast as well. But if you're looking for 79-mph running with steam, I suggest a trip to Britain......

This is a good time for me to remind the posters that while the "Rainfanning" forum is a bit more free-wheeling than the other forums, we still do not tolerate ad homenim attacks.

I'd suggest that the individuals involved remember to keep some sense of civility and decorum during their discussions.

I've also locked this thread. I believe it has run its logical course.