Modern, good looking Mike, built right here in the U.S.A. Sure would look great running at HVRM. Wish we had the money! Hope somebody can bring her "back home".

Les

Convince Steve (basket)Ballmer he needs to buy it. He just paid $2 billion for the Clippers, he can buy the dang thing for his kid for Christmas....

There are more than enough steam locomotives right here in the USA. Preservation money should go to saving locomotives with local history, not bring French, or Chinese locomotives here to consume limited resources. There are good locomotives looking for a place to run, or trying to figure out how pay the costs, which exceed any possible revenue. We are not suffering from a lack of locomotives, we are suffering from a lack of money.


This thread does bring up an interesting question I have had. Modern signal systems are based on low nose wide windshield diesels. Signals are no longer necessarily on the right side of the track. How much of a problem is this for mainline steam operation?

Built by US builders in the US by the US and sent to France by the US as a means of helping the Allies win WW II and rebuilding Europe afterward......in what respect is this not an exceptional example of American railway history with a far more interesting story to tell than another generic 2-8-0 that did nothing apart from escape the scrapper to rust away uncared for in a public park for decades?

dave

Dave -

Right on! Gee, I wonder if the folks in France might pay for the move of the 586 (or one of the other surviving 141R's) as a GIFT back to the people of the U.S.A. for their help in rebuilding their nation? Might get some good publicity for France too, in the wake of negative vibes these last few years. Heck, I'm sure we'd take it at HVRM, and other rail museums might too!

Les

Hi Guys, The 141r is based on a design for the GB&W light 2-8-2, with european clearance cab. I think a 141R was offered back in the early 70's by the SNCF to a group in the US, but they could not raise the funds to ship her back. It may have been 141R 73, currently preserved in France. This is ann old LIMA builders photo from my files. Have fun - Dave

"Built by US builders in the US by the US and sent to France by the US as a means of helping the Allies win WW II and rebuilding Europe afterward......in what respect is this not an exceptional example of American railway history with a far more interesting story to tell than another generic 2-8-0 that did nothing apart from escape the scrapper to rust away uncared for in a public park for decades?"

Like.


Mr. Notarius: Could you also post an image of the spec side of that builders card just to satify my prurient curiousity?

And these engines make all the right noises. A friend of mine was in the south of France during the summer of 1967, and he remarked to me that he enjoyed hearing the 141R class engines departing the station on passenger trains on hourly trains heading for the Riviera. I don't recall his exact words, but they were to the effect that these engines would accelerate out of the station and be up to track speed by the time they faded out of earshot. Must have been pretty impressive.

In '67!

I recall reading somewhere that the 141Rs put out shy of 3000 horsepower at the drawbar, with the Chapelon-modified examples putting out excess of that amount. Mr. Odom might know... Although I could be thinking of the wrong class all together.

Having actually shipped steam locomotives from China to the USA in 2008 cost CIF was less then $70,000 not including port charges, customs fees, unloading charges and other misc. fees. That was a Chinese Polish shipping company in liner service. My guess rates from Europe are higher but get completive bids. I would think cost should be less than $100,000 .When I was getting quotes the European shipping companies had higher rates. Last year a 20' container door to door with a 20 ton machine from UK to Ohio was less than $6000.Liner service to cheaper than inducement rates in other words the standard ports used in but Europe and USA which liner ships is cheapest. Using brokers cost more than doing it yourself also. Type of ship is a Break Bulk heavy lift. These ships have there own cranes most can easily lift a 150 ton locomotive and can directly place locomotive on a 8axle flat car at the port for shipping.

As long as we are ignoring "Price" and "Location", I might remark that the Norwegian ship "MV Belpamela" sank in April 1947 off the coast of Newfoundland, carrying sixteen class 141-R. Apparently all sixteen were built by MLW, one as a coal burner and the rest as oil burners. The "Belpamela" had an earlier brush with Railway preservation, when it carried a British 4-6-2 to the 1939 New York Worlds Fair for display and an exhibition tour.
http://www.wrecksite.eu/wreck.aspx?164171
http://www.derbysulzers.com/shipbelmoira.html

Dylan- I think those power figures are about right. IIRC, Chapelon managed to squeeze about 500 extra DBHP out of them with minor modifications (Kylchap exhausts, reducing the cylinder clearance volume, and minor changes to the valve gear).

The one in the photo above is one of the latest versions, complete with cast bed frame, roller bearings on all axles, and Boxpok drivers.

Wow.....a real discussion sans bashing!!!! Almost feels like the good ol' days!!!

The French were and are to this day very "proud" people. To be honest, they had no choice but to accept the 141R's and the smaller S class 2-8-0's from the USA. The 141R's ran way into the 70's but the French never did feel that the locomotives were "theirs." They were always known as "step children."

Of the 141R's left, the 568 and the 1244 are of most note. Both call Switzerland home. Both, very modern and both Chapelon ized locomotives. The 568 has Chapelon valve gear and the 1244 has the Kylchap exhaust system. We had almost convinced the owner of the 568 to install the Kylchap. Had he done this, the 568 would have been the only full preserved and fully Chapelon ized 141R.

One may ask....who cares? Well, to the steam purists on this page, to have a fully converted Chapelon unit with all of his modifications in operation would be a great piece of history. It is one thing to add a Porta item here or there, or a Chapelon item here of there; but a full locomotive fully modernized by Chapelon.....wow! How many of us on this board can lay claim to operating a Chapelon Locomotive? I can raise my hand to that one. A great honor, to say the least!

To whom is this locomotive of most value in terms of history? The USA ranks as high or higher than France. The French have a 141R in their museum in southern France, but that unit has nothing on the 568 or the 1244.

Though most of you may view it as a European unit.....it is far from it. Deep down, it is as American as anything out there.

Could something like this be a candidate for a "new, modern" visiting excursion steam locomotive some of us have written about previously? Sounds like it could travel on two flat cars and meet most Class I railroad clearance restrictions. If axle loadings put it in the GP or small SD range it might work for a lot of FRA Class 2 or better track. It has a U. S back story, and appeal to military history buffs as well as rail enthusiasts. It also comes without the regional factional bickering we get when we talk about recreating a lost class of locomotive - they were from all of us for an international cause. It could be lettered for U. S. Military railroad operations in liberated areas. It definitely would get media attention (and PR for the hosting railroad) wherever it goes. There is also precedent for WWII era European railroad equipment coming to the U. S. The French gave 49 "Forty and Eight" 25' four wheel box cars to the then existing U. S. states and DC in about 1949 as thanks for our coming to their rescue. I know my own father talks about riding across France and Germany in those cars. "Forty and Eight" meant they could carry either 40 soldiers or eight horses, but in his experience usually only put about 36 troops in one. Probably a lot of them don't exist anymore. C-SPAN recently did a story on Utah's 40&8, which was nearly lost, but restored for the museum in Ogden.