I'm with Bolierwash on this one. I don't think his expectations sound unreasonable at all, and he sounds like he has more than paid his grunt dues, maybe he just needs a better RR to work with.

He named himself "boilerwash', think about that for a second. He didn't name himself; "hoghead", "goldenengineer", "masterconductor" or "GodsgifttoRRing", nope he chose the name of a task that few would of the "engineer" members would perform, even under duress.

I like the idea of him getting on a cheap flight, traveling up to Sumpter, and paying to play, and see if those guys will let you haul a full train. Maybe you can fire for them on the secoond day and get some cab time that way too, and stay a couple more days and work on some freight cars.

I wish I could go up there with ya, it sounds like a good idea.

Just because its not easy doesn't mean its not fun, or play for some.

If there was a "Like" button for Dave's comments, I'd click on said "Like" button. Safety and operational needs are always primary concerns. Most of us are volunteers in this field and harbor the desire to qualify as engineer at some point. I've missed out on two opportunities at the same entity; hoping third time will be a charm (whenever it's offered in the next 5 years or so). No need for me to discuss the "why or why not" in these instances...it's water under the bridge.

Perhaps it's just semantics but isn't that really what most of us are doing? Being safe but "playing trains"? That doesn't mean you're not being careful and taking things seriously. To me my 8-5 job is work time and the rest is play time. I don't think his request sounds unreasonable.

I'm not so inclined to read anything into the "play" remarks. But, without having more information on the properties or personalities involved, I can't really form an opinion on where the fault may rest ... with the organization, or the individual. Having spent a good amount of time around a volunteer tourist organization, there's no denying that personalities and favoritism can come into play. I've seen otherwise excellent candidates overlooked, because they weren't part of the "in" clique at said organization.

I've also seen people given ample opportunity to prove themselves from a skill standpoint, who ... quite frankly, had no business being behind the throttle of a locomotive. In at least two instances, I can recall individuals who were told point blank that their student engineer cards were being revoked, because of safety concerns and their lack of aptitude in handling a train. These were volunteers who had been there for over a decade, and were student engineers for many years, who ended up leaving when they were told they would never be promoted to engineer. One of them, in particular, was so bad at handling a train that he couldn't go an entire day without panicking and putting the train into emergency at least once. It was to the point that he was either going to damage the equipment, and/or hurt someone.

Before suggesting an engineer for an hour program, can you tell us more about your experiences with the organizations you volunteered with? Were you reliable? Did you show up on time? What would they let you do? Did they let you try to progress at all?

While railroading is nowhere near rocket science, it isn't as easy as just reading a rule book and being able to translate that directly into a competent engineer. Some people will never have the skills to do so. If I have doubts about someone's ability, I would certainly NOT want to direct them to a program where they might put someone else's safety at risk, just so they can fulfill a "bucket list" type of need.

I submit using "play" in this context is contradictory to museum practice. We're talking about operating artifacts held in public trust. There is a lot about what I do at the Museum that is indeed fun, but not "play" by any means.

Wesley

Perhaps my comments need some clarification. Any organization should be willing to rules qualify and allow volunteers to operate, who are willing to learn, use best practices, and are willing to do so safely. I can understand the complaint that some places are "closed shops" where nobody, other than a select few, get to do anything, other than sort bolts for a year. In the organizations I've been involved with, there are some volunteers, who are great in the shop, or with marketing, or public relations, who I wouldn't want sitting in the left hand seat, let alone being a conductor or brakeman.

My aversion to "play" came from a fellow streetcar operator at the Museum of Transportation. Whenever I'd operate with him, he'd always say to the kids "don't we play with neat toys?" (referring to the streetcar). I always thought this was the wrong approach, as one time after he said that, a kid started to try to swing from the leather standee straps like a jungle gym. But it also told me something about this person's mindset. Granted, we all do this for enjoyment and fun, but it isn't play. Mistakes and failures to operate safely can have serious, if not deadly consequences. Often when we play, the stakes aren't as high. Moreover, using the word "play" doesn't make what we do sound important or serious. Another poster on the forum often bemoans the fact that we do not get much respect. Volunteers who tell the public that they are "playing" instead of operating or interpreting artifacts, is one root cause of this. How can you expect others to take you seriously, if you do not present yourself as such.

The original poster used the words "play" and "cop a feel" with regard to operating a locomotive. Whether he's paid his dues or not, it indicates a lack of seriousness on his part with regard to the knowledge that even old railway equipment at museums is deadly and dangerous when not respected and operated in a safe manner. This was just a gut reaction to the way he worded the post, in person, he could be much different.

I do this for fun, as much as anyone else, but I also understand that the safety rules of the railroad are written in blood, and I go volunteer with the expectation that I do so, so I can go home safely at the end of the day and come back again and again.

David Wilkins
Get Off Of My Lawn, Utah

I take the licensing of engineers very seriously around here as I'm sure most other organizations do. While I agree with what David is saying, I would respectfully submit that a prospective engineer or conductor, in addition to being willing on the items mentioned, must prove themselves competent.

I had a fellow once who was dying to be an engineer. Punctual, friendly, good student, did well on the rules class, worked hard (both grunt work, and "pretty" work), and seldom complained. I sat in the cab of the locomotive one day and watched him line the same switch 3 times, latched it and checked it each time, per rules, and was getting ready to go again when I finally got on the radio and told him it was right. A little later, he ran through one that was against him. No amount of effort by myself and others ever improved the situation. No engineers license for that one. He understood the "mechanics" of operating, but not the "concepts". He's not the only one I've ever seen that was that way.

ETA
Grouchy Rules Instructor

While we do not have all of the details to know what was promised and what was delivered it is important for all of us to realize that many volunteers that come to our organizations have many goals and while supporting the organization many want to work toward achieving their goals. I know of a retired Army Colonel that did not make conductor at a place I once worked. When I asked one of the founding members he stated he was not sure he would make it as a conductor under the current standards. Given the hostility that the executive director expressed on more than one occasion toward volunteers in operations and eventually wanting paid personnel to operate trains it is not surprising potentially good people would be driven out. Ironically in the10 years since some of those statements they are still very dependent upon volunteers for a majority of the operations on the property.
In another organization it was equally hard to convince certain people that the whole hour they spent slowing down productive volunteers did not entitle them to running the locomotive for any time or even time in the cab. It is critical that a well thought out plan as to what volunteers can reasonably expect by becoming a volunteer and if they want to achieve certain goals what will be expected of them so they can reach those goals

Respectfully
Robby Peartree.

It's about planning, clarity and defined goals and strategies, isn't it?

If you don't know what you are volunteering for, you won't know if you will want to take part or not. If the organizations priorities are not yours but nowhere is this laid out you can't decide whether or not it is going to be a good fit. If nobody runs the volunteer program, providing the setup, direction, and management / oversight that assures things are ready for productive work to take place and unproductive diversions are shut down fast, expect chaos.

If volunteers aren't reliable but operating programs are important, a good ED will look beyond volunteers to fill required positions. Lesson: be reliable and professional even though you are not getting paid. Show up on time ready and able to do good work.

Cultures are constructed, not deliberately building working cultures is the fault of all the participants. People who get personal rewards from contributing to the accomplishment of goals value a structure in which this can happen best.....not a lack of structure in which everybody pursues things on their own without a plan and preparation.

Cats don't herd themselves, but voluntarily all go towards fish. Create the fish. be the fish. Stop whining.

dave

I detected a little of this, too.

It's a connundrum. When I first volunteered at the NHV, I was told up-front that the steam crew vetted its volunteers using the "fraternity" method--I needed to get along with all the other steam crew, so we would all have the mutual trust in each other necessary for the safe operation of steam. I was also told that my first "title" would be "Assistant to the Junior Engine Wiper's Apprentice." I worked hard and moved up.

We have some younger members who come accross as "foamers," telling us up front that they know everything there is to know about operating a steam locomotive because they have MS Trainz Simulator. The only questions older members get from them is "How long did you work here before you got to be engineer?" They are prompt on ride days, but are nowhere to be found on work days. We know we need younger members--but there is definitely a difference in how some of our younger members behave and carry themselves, compared to others. Some just instictively seem to "get it," while others are more content to give cab tours to impress their buddies. We know that some kids just won't make the cut into engine service. While it may seem unfair, or even "cliquey" to them, it's unfortunately the way it is.

When I spend weeks in the freezing temperature doing off-season maintenance, and you show up on the first spring ride day wanting to help light off, and I question where you were all winter, I don't really feel bad if the job you're asigned to is rear brakeman.

Being on the other end of this is pretty awful as well. At one museum, in my youth, until my mid-20s, I'd get up early on light-off day, drive to the museum, help light the locomtoive off, help do the lubricaton, water treatment, etc. Never fail, about 10:30, when we'd leave the shop to go get the train, two guys would come trundling in, climb up in the cab and pretty much stay there all day. They were never there in the winter to do staybolt cap inspections, or help needle scale the firebox. The CMO didn't like confrontation, so he'd never say anything. One 3 day holiday weekend, I asked the CMO on Saturday if he needed help on Monday. I told him that I didn't have to be anywhere else, but would only come down if he needed me. He said yes. At 6am, it was me, him and another volunteer. We cleaned the fire, got her ready and low and behold and 10:30, the two guys showed up, and literally pushed me out of the cab. I climbed down, went into the shop and helped another volunteer install side panels on a diesel locomotive the rest of the day. That was the end of that for me.

Yes, I can see that side too. I've heard of that happening with some of the "glamour" big-steam programs out there, where you have dozens of quailfied crew, some of whom prefer to sleep in until departure time.

At the NHV I've been really blessed. The senior steam crew, each one of them, is willing to share information, and very encouraging. On my very first day, when I thought I'd be sweeping the shop, or filling oil cans, I was pulling off the top of the steam dome--real hands-on. I'd volunteered at Parris in CA before--I would have had to wait in line for years just to be allowed to touch the engine. Their volunteer base was HUGE. In NC, I was firing solo on a light engine after 8 months, because our number of qualified crew is so small.

I wish Boilerwash would take me up on my offer to come down early and stay late. It's not written in stone that you can only show up at the cab door at your scheduled run time.

I think back to those days and wonder why I'm still involved (at other places, though), or why I kept showing up back then. I think I was young, dumb and enthuiastic. 18 year old David Wilkins put up with stuff that 34 year old David Wilkins wouldn't.

What really discourages me is when you have been busting your butt on a repair (that was probably caused by operator error), and when it takes a little longer that expected and the days crew can't take the loco when they were expecting to, they start to get bent out of shape and make comments about how you are doing things. It is not just the big operations that experience these problems. I was with an organization at one time that had a feud going on between a few people in different departments. This affected how things were done and people were treated who had nothing to do with the feud. It ran some really good people out before they had a chance to do any good. Death from within.

The biggest problem I have seen with volunteer organizations is that nobody is held accountable for what they do or say. Everybody is too afraid of offending somebody and loosing them. Meanwhile, the "offender" may be costing the organization $, being unsafe or driving other good volunteers away.

What does one do?


As far as "Playing" with trains, it depends on who you ask. The MOW or Mechanical depts. will say it is playing. The Operation dept. usually is offended by that label.

One other real-life example:

At one place with which I had ambitions back in my youth, I was told I would be expected to show up by 7 AM on weekends to be in train service and to learn the ropes on steam.

A 50-minute bicycle or bus-and-walk ride away, one-way. During college. I would miss both that day's paid-for dining hall meals. And I wasn't even a late-night party animal or night owl like everyone else on campus seemed to be. I certainly didn't expect to waltz in at 11 AM and help on the steam locomotive as the first safety popped, but no amount of leeway or flexibility was apparently possible.

I soon found members of the opposite gender a much more interesting, viable, and flexible investment of my spare time, and I'm glad I did.