I'm not sure that "veto power" exists. For one, there used to be quite a few NRHS Chapters rather close to one another down South during Southern Steam Special days, well under that 75 mile range at least. I'm also aware of a couple chapters that have arisen within such a radius of another Chapter--the Potomac Chapter (formed 1970) being the proverbial "stone's throw" from the Washington D.C. Chapter (1944), for example. The Perryville Chapter was formed within that "75 miles" of the Baltimore Chapter in 1996, and as far as I remember no "veto" was offered to the Baltimore Chapter.

Let me see, where can I find a copy of the National by-laws......?

This is a bit hard to find on the net because 20 years ago, we didn't really use it but past Presidents of NRHS include:


Dr Ray Wood, a College Biology Professor, from Watertown, NY who served from 1987 to 1994.

Nelson Bowers, from Lancaster, Pa served from circa 1983 to 1987 and

Allan Vaughn from Oak Park, Ill served for the five years before that and

E Lewis Pardee before that

Also Greg won the 1994 election (in which just the National Directors voted) by a margin
of 100-17

Bob H

The last time, and perhaps the only time, this came close to being an issue was in 1996 when the Twin Forks chapter on Long Island was formed.

The Long Island Sun Rise Coast chapter objected, but this was easily resolved when someone asked "how many people lived on the island?' (and the population exceeds that of some states).

It's really a function of what the population base of a given area can support, for example in the Washington DC -- Baltimore area there are three very successful chapters.

Bob H

Maybe, that does not sound like the person I'm thinking of. I think Bowers goes back further than that, like immediately after V. Allen Vaughn, but I could be wrong. Was he a professor of, I believe, Anthropology or some similar discipline? If anyone can easily lay their hands on a NRHS Bulletin from the early '90's, he's probably listed on the Masthead.

Never mind. Thanks for the info. Ray Wood, that's the guy.

Yeah, I'm aware of that, since Potomac is my home chapter. Supposedly MIdwest vetoed a few proposed competing chapters over the years. BTW, unrelated, but... I have the Potomac Chapter program in September, for anyone in the area: Understanding Railroad Operating Practices.

It's time for a little reality check. The number of rail enthusiasts is growing smaller. Membership is aging and not being replaced by younger people.

How many kids play with Lionel trains today? How many kids want to work on the railroad when they grow up (even in spite of the blue engine and his TV show)? Today kids are interested in computers and Internet activities.

You can see the same aging process looking at railway museums. It's only a qustion of time before we start seeing rail museums dieing because of lack of members to support them. We're already seeing museums cutting back on activities because they don't have enough members to support them.

So what you see in NRHS declining membership is merely the effect of a national trend.

Wrong question, which in itself demonstrates quite a lot about the very syndrome we're discussing.

Proper Q: How many kids today play MS Train Simulator or similar computer simulations? How many kids/teens follow rail actions via FB groups, e-mail groups, railroad radio or ATCS feeds online, or websites? How many track train movements on their smart phones, and take photos and upload them to their local railfan FB groups with the same phones?

And how many of you are taking the young persons you see trackside or wherever "under your wing" and handing them your surplus rail magazines, an extra employee timetable or book, or offering them the chance to join you train-chasing or riding?

I was made a national director for my old chapter in Florida before the Tacoma convention so i could represent a chapter I haven't been associated with (other than sending membership renewal checks) since the mid 90s. If I wasn't keeping up with one of oldest friends who's in that chapter, I wouldn't have clue what's happening there today (hint; it's next to nothing and my pal firmly believes the chapter will be folding soon). Anyway, I went to that director meeting. I left that meeting really ticked off for two reasons. First, I missed a presentation on ALCO PA 'NKP 190' by Doyle McCormack himself and second, it was like a class council meeting in junior high. I was embarassed to even be there. I've not encountered an exhibition of childishness that big since before puberty. There's no amount of money I'd accept to ever go through that again. At the suggestion of a convention in Alaska, several members (mostly from the Northeast, not sure what that says) just about lost their minds. Malloy had to go so far as to remind the members that Alaska in indeed one of the 50 states. It was that ugly...

You're asking the question while making a point for your initial premise, but you're making an arguement against it. You don't know how many kids there are out there, because many of those who are train fans are now online when they would have been joining NRHS chapters or other groups in prior generations. Most of the train fans I know in the Puget Sound area are below the age of 50, at least the active ones who get out and about.
I recently had a sales table at a model train show. It wasn't a big show but I was surprised at the numbers of kids and teens trolling the show, I sold a lot of stuff to parents. And I don't mean Thomas stuff either, I sold a 12-year-old kid's Mom several DVDs that I would have thought only people like us would watch...
The bottom line is nobody really knows for sure if the numbers of trains fans overall as a mass number are declining or not. the only thing that can't be argued is that groups like NRHS are in decline for new members. But then again, Moose lodges, VFW chapters, and all manners of fraternal organizations are as well. It's the nature of needing groups of this type that is in change. The rest is speculation no matter who its coming from.
I will say this, newer generations of train fans DON'T NEED a group like the NRHS, and that, boys and girls, is the problem. Nobody can say if train fans are generally in decline or not. But groups like the NRHS are becoming rapdily obsolete, and I'd bet that I'll see the death of the NRHS within my lifetime (I'm 44 right now), probably before I retire.

Another observation on the youth issue, is that the internet has done more damage to traditional organizations like the NRHS than I think most of us understand.

We live in an age of hashtag activism, where online "awareness" and liking a video on YouTube is considered "doing something" about an issue or problem. As such, why go volunteer at the musuem, when I can "direct" railway preservation online, pontificating about how to do stuff, without actually getting my hands dirty.

Also, as mentioned by P51, modern day railfans do not need a NRHS.

The counterpart organization, the R&LHS has done a decent job of reinventing itself as a center of scholarship and study about all aspects of the railroad industry. Even their newsletter included an article on how to do research at the National Archives, so that niche has been filled.

In other words, I think those in charge at the NRHS need to ask themselves? Who are we and why are we here?

I read a article several years ago that was titled something like "Nobody Joins Bowling Leagues", the story was about the fact that more people are bowling, but they are not joining the leagues, which was hurting the Bowling Alleys because a large part of their revenue was food and drink by league members.

The premise of the author was that people were becoming more solitary and not joining groups.

-Hudson

None of us know how many rail hobbyists there are, and as anyone who markets to millennials knows, you can't judge their numbers by looking at membership in formal groups. This is not a generation of joiners.

What I have observed is that among the under 30 crowd there seem to be fewer foamer types and more deeply engaged history/preservation types.

It is also much easier to be a "specialist" these days. There is so much information available that transitioning from a general rail buff to one with special interests is easier than ever. I cannot criticize a guy who has a special rail interest. Good on him!

It is common to hear fellow hobbyists say things like, "I remember when the NRHS ran big steam conventions." That is usually followed up by a comment about how the hobby is dying. Here's my response. "Back then do you remember riding behind a CNJ steam locomotive, or going to see one of the handful of tank engines regularly trucked around the country or going to see a new build 4-4-0?" No, they didn't, because that stuff wasn't going on back then.

The hobby is not dying, it is evolving.

Thomas has done wonders for the hobby. It doesn't matter if 1 in 1,000,000 or 1 in 1,000 kids stay in the hobby after the "Thomas years." He gives railroads exposure that would be otherwise unthinkable in today's culture. Whatever we get is 100% more than what we'd have without him.

I have only recently become involved with an NRHS chapter and I love it. It is a tremendous group of people of all ages. But my gut feeling is that I am probably in one of the top 10 best run chapters in the country.

So what if weaker Chapters fold? Culling the herd can be quite productive. I would argue that the NRHS should actually encourage this. If there are 15-20 viable chapters with good leadership, maybe that's all that is needed?

If a special interest organization like the NRHS folds, it is not the fault of the would-be members, it is the fault of the organization itself for refusing to evolve.

My 2 cents,

Rob

PS: Changing of the guard is never easy. Take a gander over at any number of model railroad forums. The old guard will tell you the sky is falling, memberships in formal groups are declining, the hobby is dying (with proof being the local hobby store that never made much profit to begin with closed after the owner turned 102) and - my favorite - all these computer gizmos are making trains too confusing and expensive.

Then take a look at what young people are doing with model trains today and the results are astounding.

The hobby has changed. That doesn't mean it is dying.

Have you contradicted yourself?

because in another message you said:

" The trips and other activities at Directors' Meetings are poorly promoted to the membership, let alone the general public"

Yet, you found about it and showed up to chase.... and got a good shot published.

Also, per an article in your chapters' newsletter, that trip on the Strasburg was free to members of that chapter because that was part of a prior business deal from the sale of a car to them from years and years ago.

Incidentally, as a membership benefit, NRHS offers their members a discount program good at many tourist railroads and railroad musuems.

and on top of that you (again) guessed on when Nelson Bowers was NRHS president without checking your facts first.

Bob H

What is the relevance?? Please don't take this the wrong way. I am a dues paying member of the national and a chapter. But, what is the relevance of NRHS to me?

The publications? Yawn, I can live without them.

The annual convention? I'm more of a loner doing my own thing. Not interested.

Archives? Wow! There is something I could really get into. Oh wait, I can't access anything on line. never mind. :(

Rail camp? A worthy cause I support wholeheartedly. However, could this be achieved without NRHS? (Just asking)

Grants? Another worthy cause, but a drop in the bucket in the whole scope of things.

I'm not complaining. I'm cdertianly not promoting an anti NRHS stance. I'm just stating a typical attitude toward NRHS that I have encountered.

ONLY because I'm a member of the Chapter that ran the trip (in conjunction with the local rail authority and short line). I can honestly say, without fear of contradiction, that I "didn't get the memo" otherwise.

And, yeah, it was run on a Friday. During the workday. Great way to "outreach" to family folks, working folks, students, etc. No need to be retired or use vacation/"flex" time for that. </sarcasm>


I would make the case that this demonstrates how effective or popular he--and the organization--was. I would say that no such organization should be a "personality cult," but this is a bit too far the other way.

I agree with the earlier posting by David Wilkins. Railroad enthusiasts wanting to study and exchange information on railroad history will find R&LHS to be a very good match to their interests.

PC