I concur. We don't want to stoop to their level.

Now, I'm going to give you some good news. We don't have to stoop to their level. We have some very good numbers on our side, and some good arguments. You have provided some yourself, and provided inspiration to me.

There are some snowmobile statistics that suggest that business is quite ill, despite the bluster from the sled crowd. Some trends over time look distressingly like those for passenger trains between 1955 and 1970. I won't say what they are, but I have posted them here before, if the trail people want to look them up, they can; they will have to be the ones to deal with the truth of those numbers.

As to their attacking rail enthusiasts--we are not alone. They have recently attacked the editors of the Utica Observer-Dispatch for an editorial supporting the railroad. It's a new "field of battle," at least for me, and we may have an ally in that establishment, especially when that potential ally finds out some of the things we know. Yes, it will require some rewriting because part of what I plan to use has been in Peter Crowley's Adirondack Daily Enterprise, but that won't be too hard; the research is already done.

I'll add that I think the really nasty remarks are from people who don't have a real answer to us. They don't have good numbers, they don't have good trends, they don't have honest leaders--think of the bogus railroad restoration numbers they use, think of the hot water one of their leaders got into for overstating overnight visitors at another trail. They scrubbed that incident off their Facebook page after his whopper was exposed. Heck, they haven't even put my last couple of Enterprise pieces on their site to criticize! Part of that might be that the Enterprise is now subscription only--but that didn't stop them from posting the motor car article, so what does that tell you?

I've got better stuff coming. Just keep your head. All we have to do is place our best case out--and it's decent there!--and just let the sparks fly from the opposition.

Those sparks will speak very much about who and what the trail people are. They can actually help make our case.

One more thing--I'll admit posting some of the things I have from the opposition is not only to keep us informed, but also to keep us motivated. Anger can be a good motivator! Those posts also tell us what we are up against. But again, I also tell you, let's stay on that high road, or more appropriately for this form, the high line! It's ours, free and clear, and we have green blocks to run on!

Well, your points are valid of my last comments. Easy to fall into the same trap. Let me put it another way:

The trail group is not pleased that the railroad would receive publicity from the speeder group. These guys enjoy their hobby of riding the rails of many shortlines, and where they choose to stop for the night and take lodging is beneficial to that community. They are true visitors to the region that contribute new funds to the local economy. The NYDOT surely does not maintain the Remsen-Lake Placid rail corridor for the exclusive use of a NARCOA group. ARTA Snow would like everyone to think that is the purpose, and this is an untrue statement.

Jim

Ho, ho, ho, ho!! Do you think the trail group is pleased with anything favorable to the railroad?

Ho, ho, ho, ho!!!

In the meantime, let's make sure more favorable material gets out there!

The more we get out, the more we bug the ARTA! Ho, ho, ho, ho!

That applies even when they DON'T post it on their site for criticism. Gee, I wonder what the trail people think when there is something they don't like, something they normally would post so others could criticize, but in some cases, this doesn't happen?

Deleted by poster.

Again--you're stooping to their level. Publicly.

Sorry about that, that wasn't supposed to be mean, more in gentle humor, a mild poke rather than something stronger.

Mea culpa.

I don't really agree with the moving of this topic to the "Railfanning" section of this forum. Save for a few off the wall opinions and personal jabs, it has mostly been an ongoing discussion on the plight of a Preservation Group/Tourist railroad and a "trail" group trying to stand in the way of their progress. It should stay in "Interchange" in my opinion.

Well, at least it's not deleted entirely.

In the meantime, talking with someone else about this, got me to thinking about those motorcars and the caustic comments from the trail people.

Those motor car riders travel far to ride what are specialized vehicles. These specialized vehicles can not be used on roads, and have to be hauled on a trailer. That trailer in turn requires a truck to pull it. All of this makes them good customers for local business, both at their home base to buy the truck and trailer, and on the road, where they will visit local restaurants and buy fuel.

Now, the snowmobile riders also travel far and wide to ride specialized vehicles. These specialized vehicles also can not be used on roads unless those roads are (or should be) blocked off from traffic and also have a surface of sufficient snow. These vehicles are also hauled on trailers pulled by trucks. The snowmobilers are also good customers of local businesses, both at their home bases and where they visit.

In short, there are a number of very significant similarities.

I think the sled crowd needs to look in the mirror and see how close they really are to at least some of us!

As was expected this thread is dying in the "Railfanning" section, but for those of you still reading:

According to Facebook, a tie replacement campaign is taking place on the in-service Saranac Lake to Lake Placid section. While this doesn't mean a whole lot on the surface, it can be argued that this bodes well for the future decision to maintain the rails on the north end of the line. It certainly can't be making the folks from ARTA rest easy.

Well, it hasn't made too much sense to post links to the Adirondack Daily Enterprise because everything is behind a paywall now, but I can say there have been several pro-railroad letters, including at least a couple from the motor car group that toured up there recently. These now seem to be ignored by the ARTA people, with no mention of them on either ARTA Green or Snow, not even to criticize them.

However, the Adirondack on its Facebook page recently started running photos from the 1990s, showing just how bad this railroad was before they started repairs. Locations are mostly between mileposts 86 and 95 according to the site administrator. One has to ask, would the trail people do as well?

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/ ... ea5ad6ba40

https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/ ... cc577f7d9d

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/ ... 952855d97d

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/ ... 47d99170ba

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/ ... 3002448fe5

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/ ... f8d6083a76

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/ ... d299e9b4fc

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/ ... 75af6b0b9e

ARTA may be ignoring the main line media, but they can't help but attempt to ridicule the work the people have done on that railroad.

First up, a photo from the Adirondack reconstruction set, from ARTA Green:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/ ... 03a0fe1472

And the commentary:

The Adirondack Rail Trail Good spot for a bridge instead of a high wire act.
Yesterday at 3:59pm · Like · 1

Norm Scianna small washout
Yesterday at 4:30pm · Like

Jeff Johnson I remember that. Built the bridge and trail around it with Ed Dutcher and John Albert. All of twenty years ago now.
23 hours ago · Like

Barb Ordell https://www.facebook.com/media/set/...

There was just one comment about it on the Snow side, from Hope Frenette:

Fun and games on the corridor.

We'll be revisiting Barb Ordell's comment shortly. . .

Another photo from ARTA Green:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/ ... c5777824e6

Opening comment from the administrator:

Yup rail with trail will happen here. Not!

Following comments from others:

Charlie Frenette Hmm. Not sure I get the point?
23 hours ago · Like

Joe Tremblay Meaning no way in hell you could ever put a trail next to the tracks and do both
22 hours ago · Like

Helen A. Estabrook Where there is a will, there is a way!
21 hours ago · Like · 1

Dan Remington Beaver dam?
18 hours ago · Like

The Adirondack Rail Trail most likely.
18 hours ago · Like

Dan Remington Someone has to some dam adjustment.
18 hours ago · Like

Marcel Carrier Is ASR trying to prove that they DON'T maintain the right of way?
9 hours ago · Like

And the commentary from the Snow side:

Jim Rolf This is a picture right from the Adirondack Scenic Railroad's FB page, proving the point that rails with trails alongside can not work in many places along the travel corridor.
Yesterday at 4:33pm · Edited · Like · 3

Jason Pedu Actually Jim, if the green side of things want to ride their bikes, you can do what ever you want to a wetlands.
23 hrs · Like

Jim Rolf Right there Jason. Double standards negatively against snowmobile use???
23 hrs · Like · 1

Rosanne Warner No doubt if anyone tried to build it, an Article 78 would be filed by some nut some where. Sad. Just take the rails up. That does not look safe for the train or future passengers.
23 hrs · Like

John G M Riedmueller I'm sure the hippies will be fine with rolling in train cars of gravel then dumping it next to the tracks to make a path for us, right?
23 hrs · Like · 1

Jerry Amell APA isn't going to let either side of the rail in that pic be filled in for a bike path.......might kill a tadpole or 2.
23 hrs · Like · 3

Helen A. Estabrook This picture is a once in ten plus years occasion!!! The water will subside and life will go on! Poor advice and advertising for what could be a GREAT adventure for the majority!!!!!!
21 hrs · Like

Jerry Amell I live on the side of the tracks not far from that pic! Tell me again we have room to build a trail along side the rails, the rails run thru at least 4 swamps from Tupper to Charlie's inn.
21 hrs · Like · 3

John G M Riedmueller Reality is more people would use a biking/hiking/snowmobiling trail than the current use. If you know of a cost effective way to get a trail like that to run parallel to the rails through those swampy areas that won't set off a huge outcry from the environmentalists Helen, I'd love to hear it and I'm sure everyone else here would as well.
21 hrs · Edited · Like · 3

Anthony Suzanne But, it's wetlands. You people are evil car-driving, read-by-electric-light refrigrated fools. With heat, plumbing and AC. Go to hell and burn....BURN.
20 hrs · Like

Anthony Suzanne But, it's wetlands. You people are evil car-driving, read-by-electric-light refrigrated fools. With heat, plumbing and AC. Go to hell and burn....BURN.
20 hrs · Like

Anthony Suzanne https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0jVjWywnUE
20 hrs · Like

Anthony Suzanne ..if only it was that easy.
20 hrs · Like

Jerry Amell Are those WETLANDS going to start contributing to our starving economies? Do frogs and fish pay taxes? Why don't we just get rid of fishing and hunting season.......holy hell
20 hrs · Like · 1

I mentioned that Barb Ordell had something worth a second look. It's a link to another Facebook page, run by some guy who uses the name Pit Stain. He's a trail supporter, as we can see:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/ ... 2bbc1ebf43

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/ ... 669b3f9fcc

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/ ... 6554a68130

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/ ... a6e5c7d783

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/ ... 0109a699f9

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/ ... 0109a699f9

I'll let you form your own opinions.

The railroad has friends in an outdoor organization. No commentary by ARTA at either site at the time of posting here.

http://www.adirondackoutdoorsmagazine.c ... -railroad/

The editorial by Adirondack Outdoors is significant. Sportsman's groups provide an impartial view of the debate and this author has apparently made up his own mind about ARTA's propaganda mission. It also appears the Guest Editorial columns in the ADE are being read by someone other than rail and trail supporters.

Other comments I have read about by local business owners desiring both rail and trail venues is also providing support for the ASR; they might be gaining some ground before the UMP hearings.

Jim

Story on the Adirondack controversy from Utica:

http://www.uticaod.com/article/20141005/NEWS/141009731