OK, so you save one GP38whatever and all the parts to rebuild it into any of is popular incarnations. Every 1476 operating days, you alter it into a new one. That should keep the photographers and electron counters happy.......

dave

The problem I see with a lot of second generation diesel preservation is that, like many other locomotives, the units were upgraded during their service lives. Finding a "pristine" early GP38 may be impossible, as even non-rebuilt units may have been upgraded in some shape or form. I know of at least one preserved SD45 that has microprocessor controls.

On the other hand, there are some second generation diesels that you probably do not want preserved in "original" condition, like the GP35, the most-defective, yet best-selling diesel.

I think "best-selling" is a good reason to preserve one. As Mr Wilkins knows, the Museum of Transport at St Louis had a GP-35 until it was placed on the deaccession list a few years ago and sold to a commercial broker. So there's a second generation diesel that was preserved, then got away.

A candidate for the same kind of infamy as F. Nelson Blount's E7?

Back to the 38s for a minute.

My point was not that one or more should be saved. My point is that when you get into too many nit-picky things, such as whether or not it had dynamic brakes or which railroads it worked for or which wire is attached to terminal A on this model but terminal B on the other model, we risk getting dangerously close to the line that separates true preservation from hard-core foamer rivet counting.

An E7 is distinguishable from an E6 or an E8. Geep 38s are to the hard core foamers and roster nuts, which I think we should agree is not our target audience, as they are just a tiny sliver of attendees. If you want to target that group, go right ahead and display all the
near identical units you want.

Be prepared to be irrelevant to 99.9% of the audience, who neither knows nor cares about the number of bolts on the carbody of this unit vs. that one, or whether or not it has class light knockouts or what gauge wire it has inside, or what size injectors it has.

Excellent point, Lincoln. With any "common" EMD you have to think about what variations actually matter. For example, if you were tasked with saving SD40-2's, what would you look for? EMD? GMD? Short, medium or long nose? Etc...

I will make the argument that for people my age (46), the trains of our youth looked more like a GP38 than an F7. Would we be drawn to a deep interpretive display of GP38, GP38AC, GP38-2, GP38-3 or any other original or rebuild variant? Probably not. But having some of those '38's would be as important to us as GP7's are to today's 70 year old.

Look at RMNE. They have saved some significant locomotives which would stand on an individual basis, but together they tell an interesting story of diesel development. Not many museums have taken this point of view. There are several collections that display a Shay, a Climax, a Heisler and even a Willamette. How many have a C-424, a GP35 or 38, and a U25B? Is there something more historic about steam locomotives that makes comparative collections of geared steam more important than a comparable selection of diesels? Is a "Cass of diesels" an untenable thought?

I think part of the problem is that there are very few museums focused on such things, the bulk of interesting diesel preservation action is being undertaken by individuals or benevolent shortlines.

If someone doesn't think we could end up with an "E7" situation or worse, let's consider the number of straight SD40's preserved (short porch) or even SD40-2's. If we need to have a half dozen or so NKP Berkshires or even more C&O Kanawhas, wouldn't that suggest an equal amount of SD40 or GP38 variants deserve to be preserved.

If it is not thought about know, when will it be? When they have been reduced to frame donors?

How many AMC 2-8-4s are in good homes? I think you conflate and confuse. quantity and quality. The big difference is that when steam was retired, it was a relatively straightforward process to get a locomotive donated, provided you had a willing railroad.

Diesels, at least particular models, can be donors, or can be rebuilt to serve for many more years in either Class I or shoreline service.

I'd settle for a handful of preserved diesels over them rusting in parks or at museums who cannot care for them.

I don't think I conflated or confused anything, but it is the Internet, so anything is possible. :-) My point being, if a Kanawah was scrapped today it would be a big issue, even though there are quite a few among us. While eyes may be focused on that, the loss of the "next E7" may go unnoticed.

It's all about which ball you keep your eyes on.

Here's are some interesting thoughts if the GP38 theme doesn't hit home...

Have you ever thought about the number of RS3's actually preserved in museums (not private ownership, not running on shortlines)? The number is pretty small.

How about this tidbit... I believe the number of RS1's that were scrapped in the past year equalled about a third of the number of RS1's preserved in museums. I will be happy to stand corrected, but at least 4 RS1's were scrapped in the last 365 days. I believe only 10 or so are in museums.

If these two beloved roadswitchers are still endangered, what chance does the common EMD beast have?

Has anyone mentioned yet that in many cases the GP-38 and variants are the current sweet spot for everything short of the Mainline? Four axle. Moderate horsepower. Flexable.

This is why they aren't preserved in greater numbers - cost.

The West Chester Railroad (of PA) has a GP38-

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=34230&p=186960&hilit=+west+chester+#p186960

How many four-wheel Alco Centuries are really "preserved"?

The Reading T&HS has one.
The National Railroad Museum has GB&W C-430.
The Railroad Museum of PA has a C-415 and there are others.

The LA&L and the D-L operate them but we shouldn't classify that as preserved.

Others?

Joshua

A lot said here, so here's my take. I kinda equate the GP-38 with something like the Chevy Chevelle or Cessna 172. They have been around for a number of years and managed to do a number of tasks well. Nothing really glitzy about them though.

I was fortunate when still living in CA to have ridden all 4 of Eureka Southern's GP-38s. While the poor track pretty much kept them at slow speeds, they did exhibit an ability to pull some heavy trains, even on wet rail. It's almost all uphill with the loads from Glynn (near Scotia) to Willits and I do remember more than once being in a driving winter rain with the train down to 6-7 miles an hour laying sand as we went. Even stalled once at the shoofly around the damaged tunnel just north of Willits, but got going again OK.

IIRC, a few of SPs were given icicle breakers and worked the winters on Donner Pass in CA. Also, I believe that the NdeM used them in regular passenger service for a period of time.

The All American Workhorse.

"The LA&L and the D-L operate them but we shouldn't classify that as preserved.
"

When a short line seeks out 40-50 year old locomotives, restores them to operational status, and then spends thousands of dollars to paint them JUST BECAUSE they are Alcos, it is insulting to suggest that they are not preserved.

The attitude expressed in that comment is common among those who see a 501(c)3 charter as their holy grail and regard everything that is done in preservation outside that umbrella as illegitimate, and the artifact being preserved is not as important as the entity that is doing the preservation.

LIKE

...and with due respect to brother Wilkins, I don't think a 30 or 35 is quite the bastard child they're sometimes made out to be. You have to understand what your dealing with and what makes it tick and they can be good reliable power. Kind of like what A&M and DL havs figured out on their Alcos. I can think of a couple operations that have had good success with GP-35s and many more that have and have had good luck with the GP-30s.

While it never hurts to think ahead, I don't think we're anywhere near panic to preserve the GP-38 and/or variants. Still too many out and about. On the other hand, we're rapidly passing the time to panic on GP-7,9, 18 (from the roots blown perspective) -- their age makes them much less expensive as re-power fodder vs. the 38s

ETA

The whole thing reminds me of an occurance I witnessed years ago, wherein a group had a chance to receive a passenger coach.

A huge argument ensued, which led to the group demanding donation of 2 cars. The reason? One had red plush seats, the other had green plush seats. Otherwise, identical.

The railroad was so impressed that the group got neither car. And the groups still blames the railroad.

THAT is what I am afraid of happening if it gets down to "we must save all 3 models."

How maney of you are even trying to get AEM7s?