Two questions that certainly require answers. First, where was the flagman? Second, what about that operating rule concerning restricted speed, i.e. operating at 15 mph or less and able to stop within one-half the range of sight.

Max speed for restricted speed is 20 mph. In any case, obviously some rules were broken, the investigation will determine which ones and why. All indications are that they knew the passenger train was there and stopped. Assuming the passenger train actually was stopped (we don't know that for certain) the freight could have been traveling at double the speed he should have been, i.e. Able to stop in the distance he could see, rather than half that distance, and still been OK. Why didn't that happen? Why was he going so fast? That's he question the investigation will hopefully answer.

As for flaggers, I don't know this railroad's rules, but generally if the restricted speed rules apply, then you don't use flaggers. Determining which rules do apply would be one of the first orders of business.

Indeed. Your GCOR rulebook may say restricted speed is 20 mph, but my old NORAC rulebook shows 15 mph. More critically, as you note, the relief train's engineer was NOT able to stop safely within half his range of vision. And in my book, a flagger would have been yet another layer of safety, especially under these trying circumstances. I've been stalled on wet leaves, barely able to move the engine, much less several cars. Even with sand running fully, it's sometimes hard to get a grip on the rail.

According to NORAC Rule 80 (Movements at restricted speed) max speed is 15mph inside interlocking limits or 20mph outside interlocking limits with the ability to stop within one half the distance of vision. I don't think they fall under NORAC but I wanted to claify that NORAC does permit 20mph for restricted speed in certain conditions.

First my wishes for a speedy recovery for all those injured in this unfortunate accident.

Second, I think they will find out that stopping on wet leaf covered rails is just as hard as starting on wet leaf covered rails. I suspect the engineer on the assisting locomotive underestimated his stopping distance and hit the train he was trying to couple up to at about 10-15 mph instead of 2-3 mph.

Not clear from the news coverage but did they tie-up the freight train cars in a siding and then go to assist the passenger train, or did they try to couple an entire freight train onto a passenger train on wet slippery rails ? That might be even more difficult.

Just speculation on my part, we need to wait for the investigation to be completed.

Cheers, Kevin.

We always need to be careful with speculation on these things, particularly as we are dealing with limited intelligence and there is some room for differences in interpretation in what we have. Colloquy such as that concerning the leaf spring is a useful tool for establishing a reasonable theory on what happened but shouldn't be considered conclusive.

As for the discussion on restricted speed the operative term is 'half of sight distance". The maximum allowable speed is simply a top end limit be it 15, 20 or whatever miles per hour. If the train speed is too great to allow the engineer to stop within half of his sight distance then the train speed is higher than allowed - period - even if the actual speed is only 2 miles per hour and the rule allows for 20.

GME

Does anyone suspect that the "rescue" locomotive failed to stop in time for the same reason that the passenger special stalled, namely wet leaves and debris on the rails? Even a 5MPH hit will certainly throw unsuspecting and unprepared passengers and crew around violently enough to sustain injury. I am sure that the locomotive engineer knew exactly where the stalled train was, but the comment about posting flaggers was really right on. There should have been a crewman protecting the train.

Here's the NTSB news conference Friday.

http://youtu.be/LqWCnL8e_YM

What about stopping before coupling to a passenger consist? Also yes to a flagman and restricted speed. It seems like more than a "hard hitch".

Steve

Yah, that's what I'd guess too. People have no idea just how slippery that stuff is. We once stalled a 0.5% grade with two running Alco RS's pulling only themselves, two other locos and a heavyweight coach.

We did the same thing we always did, it just suddenly did not work at all. Maybe they experienced the same.

The whole experience has made me absolutely paranoid about plant matter on/near the rail. I go to extremes to remove it (eg weedspraying in September) and I treat it like driving a car on ice.



(This, that and the other change in procedure)

If our theory is correct, it wouldn't have helped. All parties would've done all the normal things and gotten an abnormal result. Think windshear.

Well, I just watched the video and must admit that I put my foot in it. According to the NTSB guy, the event recorder on the helper said it was traveling at 35MPH at the time of the collision. Could that be a false reading because of slipping? 35 MPH would certainly ruin everyone's day.

Listen again, at the 6:29 mark he plainly states that the event recorder indicates 25MPH at the time of collision and at various times he repeats this same speed to those that are asking questions off camera.

Here is the passenger equipment on the A&M.

Coach #104 “Biloxi Blues” was used in the Neil Simon movie of the same name. The filming was done at Fort Chaffee, Van Buren, and on the Arkansas & Missouri Railroad. The car, built for the Delaware, Lackawanna & Western’s steam powered suburban service out of Hoboken, New Jersey, reportedly carried commuters in New Jersey until 1982. The car was built by Pullman in 1917 as an early steel car using many of the design standards used with earlier wooden cars. It has open end platforms (one of the last large orders of open-platform coaches ever built), windows that open, and clerestory roofs. The car seats 72 passengers and has no air conditioning.

Coach #105 “Golden Age” was built by Harlan and Hollingsworth (Bethlehem Steel) in 1927 for the Central Railroad of New Jersey. Harlan & Hollingsworth was a Wilmington, Delaware, firm that constructed ships and railroad cars. It was acquired by Bethlehem Steel during December 1904. The shipyard closed in 1926. However, railcars were built on the site until 1940, and parts for railroad cars until 1944. The car served in commuter service for many years, and has closed vestibules. The car has 72 passenger seats as well as a conductor’s cabin. The car is air conditioned.

Coach #106 “Mountain View” is a sister to coach #105 with a similar history. It also seats 72 passengers plus two more seats next to the restroom. It too has air conditioning.

Parlor Car #107 “Explorer” was built by Pullman Standard in 1955-1956 as Long Island Railroad class P72 coach 2927. The car was rebuilt in 1989 by the LIRR as class PP72B parlor car 2002. This car was one of only two “dual mode” parlor cars, capable of drawing power from either its installed diesel generator system or from a trainline. When the car was retired, it was acquired by Ken Bitten and used as a table car on the Northern Central Railway in Pennsylvania. After the Northern Central shut down, the car moved to the Arkansas & Missouri Railroad in December 2004. This car also has an open platform.

Dome #108 “Silver Feather” started life as Western Pacific dome coach #812 “Silver Feather,” built by Budd in 1948 for the famous California Zephyr. Today, the car has table seating in the dome and vestibule end because of its later use in a dinner train. When retired, the car went to the Auto Train where it was painted and renumbered as #461. By the mid-1980s, the car was restored to its California Zephyr look and name and served on the Texas Southern operation. The car then became Washington Central (WCRC) #151 in 1993 before moving to BC Rail and their Pacific Starlight Dinner Train in 1997. There, the car retained the 151 number, but acquired the name “Moonglow.” With changes on the railroad, the operation was shut down and the car listed for sale by late 2002. In February 2004, the car was sold to the Ontario Northland and renumbered 901. The car was again sold in December, 2010, and arrived on the Arkansas & Missouri by late 2011, where it was numbered 108 and renamed “Silver Feather.”

Diner-Lounge #8322 - A&M #109 - entered service on August 20, 1950, as a Southern Pacific Sunset Limited “Pride of Texas” coffee shop-lounge car. Numbered SP 10409, the car was decorated with Texas cattle brands and featured inexpensive meals for coach passengers. Known by some as a hamburger grill car, the car was built by Budd with 32 dining table seats, 14 lounge-table seats, a bar and a kitchen. The car became Amtrak 8322 in 1971. After being retired, the car became owned by Hank Peterson (RPCX 8322) and used on trips on the Ohio Central, including during the 2006 NRHS convention. The A&M acquired the car in early 2014.

I'm pretty sure the NTSB guy said the collision was at 25 mph, with a high speed of 28 recorded during the trip to meet the passenger train. The tracks normal speed limit was 35 and the rescue train was supposed to be operating at restricted speed, which is 20....

It looks like they might have been in a hurry, perhaps hours of service was an issue....
In any case, I've been there and done that....I'm not excusing the act of bending rules because of being in a rush, but it happens....probably more than you might think it would. You can often get away with such things maybe 9 out of 10 times, but that tenth time usually bites you...it can bite real hard.

I've dealt with very similar slippery rail conditions. It can be very unnerving when you lose traction and then you find yourself sliding backwards or you find yourself being shoved down a hill with no way to stop.....at that point, you're just along for the ride and all you can do is keep working to get it under control....

I'm unclear about something at 5:40 in the NTSB video, and I listened to it several times. Did the train get uncoupled ("separated") from the locomotive as a result of the collision, or was the train uncoupled when the collision happened? The second scenario may make more sense; set a few hand brakes, cut off and run the light engine ahead to sand the rails. But then he says that the emergency brakes kept the train from going anywhere. Or did I miss something?