A Mystery Car (Well, Two Actually):

373. Earlier today, I received info regarding the listing on Rail Swap for this car:

Passenger compartment car Cleveland

Note that this is not the actual Rail Swap listing, but the Google cached version of the page, as Rail Swap is currently offline. The car is listed for sale for US $15,000 by the Midwest Railway Preservation Society (formerly the Midwest Chapter NRHS), and the address listed is for their ex-B&O roundhouse in Cleveland.

However, the info provided with the add has resulted in a mystery:

The add gives the car ID as the Palm Point, which has already been listed in this thread with a completely different fate:

86. Palm Point (Lot #6337, Plan #3975X, 1930/40, 3C-1DR-buf-sol-lng-obs)--sold to NP #749 (12/31/1948) sold to Track 29 (Yakima, WA) and scrapped in September 2013.

Now, if the car currently listed for sale is indeed the Palm Point, that what was the identity of the car scrapped in Yakima? If the car in Yakima was the Palm Point, then which one of the Plan #3975 cars is in Cleveland?

There were a total of 43 Plan #3975 cars, the first 4 of which had only 1 compartment instead of 3, and the next 12 cars had 2 compartments, the remainder had 3. Of those, 8 cars had Palm-series names. The dispositions are listed as such by Wayner:

Palm City wrecked on 1/14/1947 at Perham, MN, on NP.

Palm Grove sold 12/31/1948 to PRR #8546 WFL 4/16/1958 and sold for scrap.

89. Palm Lane retained by Pullman and sold 8/23/1956 to Strates Shows as #2 Syracuse sold to Central New York Chapter NRHS, on long term lease to Iowa Pacific-SLRG as of 2013.

Palm Villa sold 12/31/1948 to PRR #8547 WFL 12/31/1951 and scrapped.

Palm Islands streamlined 7/1940 for National Limited and sold 12/31/1948 to B&O #7490 WFL 5/2/1957 and reconfigured to coach observation #3310.

Palm Key streamlined 7/1940 for National Limited and sold 12/31/1948 to B&O #7491 WFL 8/22/1952 and converted to business car #900.

86. Palm Point sold 12/31/1948 to NP #749 as listed above.

Palm Valley retained by Pullman and sold 3/31/1959 to Purdy Company.

Of the 4 Palm-series cars not wrecked, sold to a scrap dealer, or otherwise accounted for, does anyone know which one is currently in Cleveland, or is it actually the Palm Point and the car formerly in Yakima was misidentified? If not the Palm Point or one of the other Palm-series cars, that what is the identity of said car?

Some pictures from the add:

http://railswap.org/osc/classifieds/oc-content/uploads/17/1682.jpg



http://railswap.org/osc/classifieds/oc-content/uploads/17/1683.jpg



Sources:

1. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayner Publications, 1985)

2. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

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Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

Way back on page #12, from January 21st:



Finally uploaded the higher (original) resolution versions of the 2 pictures I took of this car back in 2009:

263. Narcissus (Lot #4761, Plan #3416T, 1924/43, 42 bunk tourist car for military transport converted from 28 seat parlor-1DR)--Tourist #6042--sold to N&W and converted to Class Pn coach #785 (1947) converted to Class MS1 mail storage #1459 (1952) to Springfield Model RR Association (1969) to Monticello RY Museum (when??) to IRM (when??)

End view, as posted earlier in a lower resolution:

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=4018144



Side view:

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=4018145



Sources:

1. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayner Publications, 1985)

2. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

3. Jerry LaBoda's photo links database: http://passcarphotos.info/

4. Norfolk & Western Historical Society website: http://www.nwhs.org/

5. IRM website: http://www.irm.org/

_________________
Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

Looking at these shots once again (with some sleep, thankfully) convinces me that it is the side of a Plan 2416 parlor... the welded panels above the rivets show two pieces being added, which would have been correct for a paired window at this location of the side.

A note about Plan 2416 sleepers... not all had paired windows for the aisles. Later cars, built to Plan 2416D cars were built, between 1922 and 1923, with single windows along the aisles, much the same as the later cars were built with. And this applies to a number of the various car Plans that continued to be built up to just prior to the introduction of #xxx Plans and the pediment ends.

Thanks for the correction on #1459... will have it fixed when I post a new Update of the Index the middle of November.

Ah ha...

Makes sense that this was originally the Plan #2416 Barneston, not the Plan #3416 Narcissus, as Wayner lists the Narcissus as sold in 1947 to N&W MofW #526474.

263. Barneston (Lot #3804, Plan #2416, 1910, 1DR-plr [26], PRR)--sold to N&W and converted to Pn Class coach #753 (1941) converted to BP1 Class baggage-coach #620 (1947) converted to MS1 Class mail storage #1459 (1952) to Springfield Model RR Association (1969) to Monticello RY Museum (when??) to IRM (when??)

Sources:

1. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayner Publications, 1985)

2. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

3. Jerry LaBoda's photo links database: http://passcarphotos.info/

4. Norfolk & Western Historical Society website: http://www.nwhs.org/

5. IRM website: http://www.irm.org/

_________________
Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

Another Survivor:

374. Hidden Lake (1st) (Lot #4770, Plan #3585A, 1924, 10S-1DR-2C, GN)--sold to ERIE (1948) converted (1949??) to business car #6 renumbered (when??) to #4 to EL #4 sold (when??) to Hoboken Shore RR sold (when??) to Delaware Otsego-Cooperstown & Charlotte Valley as CACV #4 Otsego Lake sold (when??) to private ownership and moved to the Wortendyke neighborhood of Midland Park, NJ, next to the depot, where Newtown Rd crosses the NYS&W (MP 26.15).

Pictures:

1. As ERIE #4, location unknown: http://rr-fallenflags.org/el/pax/erie-bc4ajh.jpg (RR Fallen Flags, Jay Held Collection)

2. As ERIE #4 in Chicago, 1967: http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/erie4.jpg (North East Rails, http://www.northeast.railfan.net/rolling47.html, photographer unknown)

3. As ERIE #4 in Youngstown, OH, date unknown: http://rr-fallenflags.org/el/pax/erie-bc04lba.jpg (RR Fallen Flags, Larry Berger Collection)

4. As Hoboken Shore RR: http://hbs.railfan.net/hbs12.jpg (HBS)

5. As Hoboken Shore RR: http://hbs.railfan.net/hbs8.jpg (HBS)

6. As CACV #4, in Cooperstown, July 1979: http://rr-fallenflags.org/misc-c/cacv004ssa.jpg (Sal Suppa photo)

7. As CACV #4, in Cooperstown, July 1979: http://rr-fallenflags.org/misc-c/cacv004ssb.jpg (Sal Suppa photo)

8. As CACV #4, note the ex-AT&SF full domes in Auto Train colors: http://gino.cdfw.net/_railpage/DOS/CACV4.jpg (Mark J. Jacob collection)

9. In Wortendyke, Midland Park, May 15th, 1992: http://abpr.railfan.net/december09/12-03-09/DelawareOtsego-CACV4atWortendykeNJ5-15-92EO.jpg (Joseph Testagrose photo) (click once to enlarge)

10. In Wortendyke, Midland Park, June 3rd, 2009: https://www.flickr.com/photos/34396697@N00/3736652667 (ho_hokus photo)

11. In Wortendyke, Midland Park, October 10th, 2014: http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/112756450.jpg (Adam Elmquist photo) (click once to enlarge)

12. In Wortendyke, Midland Park, October 10th, 2014: http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/112756440.jpg (Adam Elmquist photo) (click once to enlarge)

13. Photo of the Midland Park depot, October 10th, 2014: http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/112756456.jpg (Adam Elmquist photo) (click once to enlarge)

14. Historic photo of the Midland Park depot, circa 1910: https://www.flickr.com/photos/117199927@N03/14553512685 (Acquackanock Times collection, http://acquackanocktimes.com/)

Sources:

1. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayner Publications, 1985)

2. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

3. Jerry LaBoda's photo links database: http://passcarphotos.info/

4. Joshua K. Blay's Delaware Otsego passenger car roster: http://www.joshuakblay.com/dopass.html

5. Mark J. Jacob's Delaware Otsego passenger car roster: http://gino.cdfw.net/_railpage/DOS/doprenyswpass.htm

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Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

.

MKT Steam--

Is the car you are referring to the St. Carvan?

It was listed back on page #2.

58. St. Carvan (Lot #4762, Plan #3410A, 1924, 12S-1DR)--retained (12/31/1948)--donated to Museum of Transportation (1961)

If not, do you have additional info?

Another Survivor:

375. Chicago (Lot #4210, Plan #2492, 1914, pvt. car)--sold to NdeM (1934) transferred (when??) to Secretaría de Comunicaciones y Transportes (SCT) #103 sold (when??) to Silver Creek International #103. Most of the SCI-owned cars, including the NYC Sunrise Brook, WP Silver Planet, the 2 AT&SF Blue sleepers, the ACL County sleeper, and the SAL 10-6 sleeper are stored in San Luis Potosi. Does anyone know if the Chicago is in San Luis Potosi, or elsewhere? The car was listed for sale, so it might have changed hands by now.

Pictures:

1. As SCT #103, in Mexico City: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=755682 (Toshihiko Yamada photo, Jerry LaBoda Collection)

2. As SCI #103, in San Luis Potosi: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=335868 (Juan Viladrosa photo)

3. As SCI #103, in San Luis Potosi: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1965141 (Juan Viladrosa photo)

4. "For Sale" photos, including interior views: http://rrpicturearchives.net/archiveThumbs.aspx?id=54572 (Juan Viladrosa album)

Sources:

1. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayner Publications, 1985)

2. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

3. Jerry LaBoda's photo links database: http://passcarphotos.info/

_________________
Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

The 12-1 at M&H is "Orange State", built for Overland Limited service. It became a GM&O car, finally used as a coach with no interior change. Sold to a succession of private owners (2 at least), it became RMNE property in the late 1980s, and was eventually given by RMNE to a volunteer group at M&H. A second car that RMNE obtained from the previous owner, "Mount Royal" (10-section lounge solarium) was moved from Middletown, Pa to Connecticut about 1989.

"Orange State" had a fire-damaged drawing room, due to being next to a gon-load of ties set ablaze in a St. Louis yard during her trip from Texas to Pa in the early 80s. RMNE deemed the car to be mostly duplicative of our "Breslin Tower".

Howard P.

Thanks, Howard, for the additional info regarding the 52. Orange State and the 49. Malatha/Mount Royal!

I had noted Robert Sherwood as acquiring the Mount Royal in 1971; did he acquire the car directly from KCS, or was there another owner before him? Also, I had noted Sherwood as acquiring the Orange State in 1968. Was 1968 when GM&O sold the car to the first private owner, or was that at an earlier date? Also, were these 2 cars moved to RMNE circa 1992?

49. Mount Royal (2nd) (Lot #3944, Plan #2521I, 1911/30, 10S-lng-obs, ex-Malatha)--sold to CGW (1948) sold to KCS and reconfigured to parlor-coach #201 (1951) sold to Robert Sherwood (1971) to RMNE (198?).

52. Orange State (Lot #4894, Plan #3410A, 1925, 12S-1DR, Overland Limited)--sold to GM&O (1948) to coach #2206 (1959) sold to private ownership (when??) sold to Robert Sherwood (1968??) to RMNE (198?) sold to Middletown & Hummelstown (1993).

Sources:

1. "The Complete Roster of Heavyweight Pullman Cars" by Robert J. Wayner (Wayner Publications, 1985)

2. Tom Madden's Pullman Project CCR database: http://pullmanproject.com/Database.htm

_________________
Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

Bob Sherwood bought the Mt Royal from a Texas contractor who had used it as a mobile office. Orange State was stored in Houston when Bob had some wheel work done by Houston Belt & Terminal-- it was at HB&T that the adjacent carload of ties was set ablaze.

Both cars were donated to RMNE in 1992, and Mt Royal moved to RMNE in Connecticut in mid-1994. After some work was done to prep it for movement, Orange State was eventually given to the M&H group in spring of 1994.

In the late 1930s, Mt Royal (and identical car Mt Mansfield) were assigned to an overnight B&M/CV/CNR Boston-Montreal train called "The New Englander", thus the interest of RMNE in this car.

Howard P.

Thanks again, Howard, for the additional info!

Back on page #20:



Found some additional photos of these 2 mystery cars taken by Fred M. Springer:

Unidentified Pullmans: https://www.flickr.com/photos/railphotoart/15400354991/sizes/l

SLG&W demotorized interurbans: https://www.flickr.com/photos/railphotoart/15216788289/sizes/l

Source:

1. Jerry LaBoda's photo links database: http://passcarphotos.info/

_________________
Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

Thanks Howard P. for giving the correct info on both the Mt. Royal and Orange State. However the only thing I could add is that the Orange State along with other GM&O cars including the heavyweight sleepers Deep South and Show Me were purchased by Dave Wallace in San Antonio, TX. I have somewhere a list of some of the cars in this group from Mike Palmieri who recorded the moves on their way to TX. Fast forward to 1973. While visiting Dave Wallace along with other Gulf Coast Chapter members to recover some donated batteries from ex MoPac cars, noted that he still owned the Show Me and Orange State. However he was about to scrap both. Made an inquiry, and along with 6 other interested parties, purchased the OS and had it moved via MoPac to Houston where it joined the Mt.Royal. The Show Me was scrapped that year and provided a few parts for the OS
The fire unfortunately occurred one hot summer day in 1979 when the OS and Mt.Royal each had one truck with wheels out being worked on by the SP across town. Ties ignited on a flat car due to instantaneous combustion. Fire caused a little warpage to the sides and some burned seats and wall materials to the drawing room. restorable. No other damage. Both cars OK's by MoPac and CR for move to Middletown, PA in June of 1981
Here is a copy of one report from Mike Palmieri about the GM&O cars bought by Dave Wallace
The Mt. Royal was purchased by me in 1971 from a oil field contractor in Houston who had purchased it either directly from the KCS or from another party a few years before. Fuzzy on the details here. The car had been used by the KCS as an office somewhere and had signs of a telephone and AC window unit installed. Other than the buffet being gutted and refinished for installation of vending machines and the sections removed and replaced with reclining seats, the 201 aka Mt Royal was as rebuilt by Pullman in 1929-30.

[[u]size=150][i

Quote:

]GM&O train No. 33 arrived in New Orleans on 17 December 1970 with eight GM&O passenger cars, all consigned to David Wallace in Longhorn, Texas

:

COACHES: 2205, 2206, 2207, 2208
PARLOR-LOUNGE: 3040[/u] SLEEPERS: SHOW ME, DEEP SOUTH, LAKE MELVILLE[/i][/size]

Thanks Howard P. for giving the correct info on both the Mt. Royal and Orange State. However the only thing I could add is that the Orange State along with other GM&O cars including the heavyweight sleepers Deep South and Show Me were purchased by Dave Wallace in San Antonio, TX. I have somewhere a list of some of the cars in this group from Mike Palmieri who recorded the moves on their way to TX. Fast forward to 1973. While visiting Dave Wallace along with other Gulf Coast Chapter members to recover some donated batteries from ex MoPac cars, noted that he still owned the Show Me and Orange State. However he was about to scrap both. Made an inquiry, and along with 6 other interested parties, purchased the OS and had it moved via MoPac to Houston where it joined the Mt.Royal. The Show Me was scrapped that year and provided a few parts for the OS
The fire unfortunately occurred one hot summer day in 1979 when the OS and Mt.Royal each had one truck with wheels out being worked on by the SP across town. Ties ignited on a flat car due to instantaneous combustion. Fire caused a little warpage to the sides and some burned seats and wall materials to the drawing room. restorable. No other damage. Both cars OK's by MoPac and CR for move to Middletown, PA in June of 1981
Here is a copy of one report from Mike Palmieri about the GM&O cars bought by Dave Wallace
The Mt. Royal was purchased by me in 1971 from a oil field contractor in Houston who had purchased it either directly from the KCS or from another party a few years before. Fuzzy on the details here. The car had been used by the KCS as an office somewhere and had signs of a telephone and AC window unit installed. Other than the buffet being gutted and refinished for installation of vending machines and the sections removed and replaced with reclining seats, the 201 aka Mt Royal was as rebuilt by Pullman in 1929-30.

[[u]size=150][i[quote]]GM&O train No. 33 arrived in New Orleans on 17 December 1970 with eight GM&O passenger cars, all consigned to David Wallace in Longhorn, Texas
COACHES: 2205, 2206, 2207, 2208
PARLOR-LOUNGE: 3040[/u] SLEEPERS: SHOW ME, DEEP SOUTH, LAKE MELVILLE[/i][/size]