Emmo raises an important point.

As has been often debated here is the question...does steam justify its additional costs ( not minor) by generating sufficient additional revenues to cover them??

The short answer is no.

In typical shortline tourist service the customers buy a ticket for a range of reasons ( Santa/North Pole, Easter Bunny,Pumpkin, Dinner Train, Murder Mystery, etc.,etc.,etc.) that have nothing to do with the motive power, and the harsh truth is could care less what's pulling the train.

We'll ( NH&I) carry a record number of guests this Santa season running 100% diesel and all day Saturday I didn't hear a single gripe about the fact that # 40 was absent.

When you figure that steam adds somewhere in the neighborhood of 20-25% to the cost of operating that's a pretty sizeable investment all things considered.

For those of us who love steam and believe it's an important part of the overall product that incremental cost is justified. For those who are only interested in bottom line profits its not.

Pretty straight forward equation.

Ross Rowland

People come--and, more importantly, come many times or tell/bring others--to excursion lines and museums because they have an overall positive experience. It is up to the railroad/museum in question to provide that experience, be it with a trip to the Grand Canyon or through the Verde Canyon, a "Disney World" total experience, a "living-history" walk into a "time capsule", or entertainment that can range from a disco car to a fine dining experience to a museum to "Wild West robberies" to the "Singing Conductor." If steam is your reason for being--see EBT, Cuimbres & Toltec, WW&F, etc.--you want it there.

Special events such as visits by Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, or Thomas the Tank Engine offer a temptation to "slack off" the work, with the excuse that "no one's paying attention to the train anyway." That MIGHT be much more true then than during a regular run, but the little details still make a world of difference. In broad theory, like the line about "do every show as if it's your last," a line like New Hope, etc. should operate as if someone on a lone coach coupled to the back of the "special train" can have just as good a time as those participating in the Murder Mystery/whatever.

I've even seen debate as to whether "special trains" like this should include some coach for the "others." I know that during one NRHS dinner train charter, we saw to it that two members' families with little kids, who would have gotten nothing but an empty wallet out of a fancy dinner setting, were accommodated in a coach to the rear at normal fares, and passed "snacks" from the dinner servings.

But would people ride the R&N Santa trains if 425 and 113 on the Minersville trains only weren't pulling them? People do ride the Jim Thorpe trains which are normally diesel, but the 425 fall runs sell out but some of the diesel fall runs from Port Clinton sold out, too. Colebrookdale is getting business without steam, and so does WK&S. It seems that average families could care less what's pulling the train as long as the RR is open. Steamtown is getting ridership even with the lack of operating steam. Steam requires more care in maintenance and operation than diesel, but diesel motors can fail, whereas steam just uses coal and water for fuel, and doesn't rely on electric motors like diesels do.

Robert K, The answer to your question is yes. If you looked at the make up of the riders on the 425/113 trips you'd see that 99% of them were family groups who came for the kids to enjoy a train ride ( for most of the young ones a first ever train ride) and really important, to meet Santa. Nearly all of them would have been there if the power was a diesel.

That's the truth, sad as it is to us steamaholics.

Ross Rowland

Last weekend, the Roanoke Chapter NRHS and Virginia Museum of Transportation ran Santa Trips known as the Candy Cane Shifter. The motive power was a restored N&W T-6 and the consist included two passenger cars and two cabooses.

When it comes to steam power, I'm sure that I am not the only one in my core group that would've loved to have Santa come in via steam power, but again, I didn't encounter one person the whole day that was sad that there wasn't a steam engine powering the train. In fact, I saw at this event, as well as previous events, that most people that ride are more interested in riding in one of the cabooses than what engine is on the point.

Besides, we all know that Alco's are wannabee steam engines anyway....;)

Steam is fun to have, but not exactly necessary to bring people in to ride.

Well I didn`t mean to start a big debate by asking Mr. Rowland a question. I`m 100% foamer and in the .1% that does care about what`s pulling the train. That being said I would like to thank Mr. Rowland for everything he has done and indirectly giving me a lifelong intrest in steam. My first exposure to steam was the Pine Creek loop, New Hope, and the Freedom Train so being able to have a cab ride in #40 with Mr. Rowland is a very special treat for me. And thank you to the folks at New Hope and all the railroads that even though it probably makes no business sense are doing their best to keep some of these great machines alive hopefully for many years to come. Thank You, Drew Young

Drew,

I appreciate the intent of your original question, but think it did bring up a fair point for discussion, even though it has been discussed here before.
I think the decision to run steam is contingent upon the type of operation you are visiting. Most tourist railroads, unless they are focused very specifically on recreating a particular atmosphere or experience could run steam or diesel without a second thought.
Museums are a different situation. If running steam helps promote the mission and goals of the museum, then steam should be run.
In any case, the locomotives used should complement the overall experience and leave the visitor or customer with an experience which is cohesive and consistent. (e.g. Running steam era consists pulled by diesel locomotives) it comes down to providing a vintage transportation experience which can be complemented
I'd be very interested in seeing research that shows the preference for steam or diesel at a variety of operations - Strasburg, Steamtown, IRM, Sierra, etc.

I hypothesize that there would be a preference for steam at some locations, a preference for diesel at others, and some places where it made no difference at all.

Steve

Steam is a draw, but I can say that Keokuk Junction Railway's F-unit powered Santa Train this past Saturday drew a huge crowd of railfans, at one point there was probably 30 or more people chasing the train, with all the antics of chasers that have come to be expected of those following steam.

The kids that got to go up in the cab and blow the horn didn't care that it was a diesel, it was just a train to them.

People come to Christmas themed events for Christmas themed experiences. The expectation is different that your audience would expect if they were coming to what was sold to them as a steam themed event.

Foamers want everything and anything, and are too few in number to worry about as they will show up for anything, ride if you are lucky enough to get a ticket price from them, which you should make high enough to justify dealing with the lecture about what you are doing wrong or spoiling their photo op that will come with it. Don't worry about attracting foamers, they will just materialize. Don't worry about offending foamers, they are already offended. Spend your resources on attracting the general public.

It's part of branding...you brand your operation as a whole, and special events you produce have their own special brands also. If what you tell people they will experience is not what you provide you will lose customers and deservedly so. If they get what they paid for and a little bit extra, they will return and tell others about how much fun they had.

You don't need steam if they come for Santa. You don't need steam if they come to see the Grand Canyon. You do need steam if they come to see steam.

dave

Norfolk Southern did a good job with its new steam program so far. There were a few times where a diesel unit had to substitute for 630 but most of the time steam was on the point and 765 ran a few trips without diesel help. Now, I'd love to see the 765 run the Reading line in Berks and Lehigh Counties again without diesel. If they have to have diesel along, let it be the Reading unit. It's possible that we might see 765 back in the Keystone State next year. If it is true, let it run over the old Reading lines this time toward Reading, Allentown, etc. We'll just have to wait for the schedule next year between Jan-March. This year the 765 schedule was late, it came out in March, last year the schedule came out in February. 765 is supposed to run more public trips on NS next year than it did this year, the only public trip on NS was the Detroit Arrow. Next year we'll have 4501 and 611 joining the program.

Not to be rude about this, Robert K, but we get the idea.

You want a 765 trip out of Bethlehem, because you live there or close by.

Writing it out repeatedly 100 times on an electronic blackboard will not affect whether it happens or not.

I realize that none of these operations have to run steam but I am very grateful for the ones that do even on a limited basis and do my best to support those operations by showing up when they do and buy tickets and anything extra they may offer like the cab rides at New Hope or the shop tours at Strasburg. I may be a foamer but you`ll never hear me complain or tell anyone how to run their business. Understanding the costs and time involved I`m just happy there are as many opportunities as there are to experience live steam these days. Whether people show up just for the steam or not there is way more excitement at the station with the sites, sounds and smells of a fired up steamer than a diesel. I can`t be the only one out there that feels the same way. I would also like to give a shout out to Richard and the guys in Maine for what they are doing with the 470. Hopefully in the near future I`ll have another place to visit for the bucket list. Again, thank you to all those involved in preserving steam and keeping this foamer happy, Drew Young

I was wondering wouldn't steam bring in more business for any railroad? I mean steam built this country and I believe steam is important to operate like I said earlier. Steam bring in the crowds and good PR I understand the bottom line because I am like that but I do care about history and preserving it. People like seeing the unusual and steam is unusual to many. Steam are better built than Diesels in my opinion and showed America's glory days as an Industrial nation. I'm passionate about steam and I study the mechanics of steam. So I would like to know your opinion Ross the steam king.

Unquestionably there are times when steam is THE draw. I love them too, as there's no other machine created by man that has that certain appeal to the soul.

But I think in the case of the "Christmas Experience" the presence or absence of steam is greatly over-rated. If it were the big draw, then how do you explain the record crowds that descended on Pennsylvania Trolley Museum's "Santa Trolley" event the past couple weekends? Nearly every trip sold out well in advance and on some days extra trips were required to handle the walk-in trade.

It's the family experience of exposing the youngsters to Santa that counts. Most parents (even those who call our cars "trains" or worse yet, "choo-choos") go away happy and the kids thrilled.

And all us PTM volunteers get that warm feeling of having done good.

I realize nothing I say will affect NS or FWRHS decisions on where to operate trips next year. But, based on their past achievements (they have already been to PA twice) from other's info that I gathered over the past year or so, bits and pieces of info some from FWRHS themselves, it seems that they want to return to PA next year and possibly go toward Allentown on the old Reading lines owned by NS. But, Kelly Lynch said that they plan dozens of trips and only a few became reality so far. They wanted to go to Buffalo, NY last year but it never happened due to logistics, etc. On Trainorders recently there was this comment from a guy in Ohio:"Back in September, I was in Akron talking to the engineer on the 765. I asked him if they were going to be doing Horseshoe Curve trips next year. He said they might be doing a deadhead move to Allentown, PA so they probably will go around Horseshoe curve if they go there. However, what really struck me is when he said they wanted to do a trip to Buffalo, NY. That would likely mean that they would travel up the Ex-NKP line from Bellevue to Buffalo depending on if they went to Allentown first or second. I'm hoping that this is for real".

Notice the word MIGHT. They haven't finalized the 765 schedule for next year so nothing is set in stone yet. They can change the trip plans on a whim depending on NS's ability to accommodate steam excursions on a particular line. The Reading and Harrisburg lines are quite busy with about 20 trains a day. Now, they were able to accommodate the Amtrak special last month from Philly to Harrisburg via Reading, but a diesel train is a different circumstance than a steam train that needs more attention. Another guy on this forum heard from contacts at NS that next year will see steam in places that last saw steam in 1988. That leads me to believe that there will be more steam excursions next year on former Conrail lines now owned by NS. NS steam last ran 1994, but steam excursions on Conrail last ran 1988 or so. The last public steam excursions through Allentown, PA were in 1988 with BM&R 2102 and NKP 765. (they boarded in other places like Temple, PA and Bound Brook, NJ) The only thing we can do is wait until the NS excursion schedules come out next year. Last year the Lehigh Limited ran from Hoboken to Bethlehem over NS ex-LV track and ex-DL&W/EL track and NJT, but I didn't ride that excursion. It started in Hoboken and you couldn't board it at Bethlehem. The stop was at an old piggyback facility where they had lunch in tents while they ran the diesels around the train. The line from Bethlehem to Reading is the only section that hasn't been covered by a public excursion in recent history. Newark-Bethlehem and Philly-Reading-Harrisburg were covered by diesel excursions last year and this year. The high line in Philly is CSX. So, apparently despite their hatred for steam they will allow an Amtrak special on their tracks for a short distance. But CSX as a general rule has had almost zero railfan trips even diesel in recent history. NS is more accommodating now toward special excursion trains since Wick Moorman has been CEO.