Robby, regarding CATS - I feel your pain, having been part of propositions which have failed for a lot of reasons, some on purpose for other peoples agendas - but what it sounds like to me is not a marketing question related to motive power, but an availability of ANY motive power that could haul trains that cost revenue. The most expensive train you have is the one that you didn't run when you had a load of passengers willing to ride one. The second most expensive is the one you run when and how you want to when nobody much wants to ride it. The cheapest one is the one that is full of happy people no matter what is pulling it. So it isn't about choice of motive power which is a marketing decision, but making damn sure you have trains ready to run when you have people to ride them which is a management decision.

Stephen has done a lot of research and thought and it is all top quality. I'm going to find that book....

dave

While caused by different and varying issues it is sad to me that three out of 4 historic land mark railroads in the US have struggled to survive. They have more to offer than the impressive but historically diverse collection of artifacts. These places show a lot about the complex business railroads were and the number of tasks needed to keep the property operating.

The C&TS has an incredible amount of interest in it, it been and continues to be a frustration for many in many ways and for many years. I will argue that if the amount of attention and money spent on books models, DVD’s, and other items on the Colorado Narrow Gauge was instead put into a trust fund for the surviving equipment would have done an incredible amount of preservation. But in the end you have to put a package together that includes a desirable experience for the visitor and a doable experience for the operator.

When I worked at the Nevada Northern, Mr. Bassett asked why I thought the C&TS did not do an engine rental for more money. Now this was before the Engineer and Firing schools at the C&TS and I said that they could charge far more than we were if they wanted to due to the popularity of Denver & Rio Grande narrow gauge. A well known and photo friendly environment should sell to many people with many diverse interests.

With the Nevada Northern diesel rental program Mr. Bassett has talked about repainting the form BHP SD-9 unit into a factious Nevada Northern 402 .The unit’s actual history is from the Southern Pacific and I could not convince him that a historic SP paint sceam could be both historically correct and profitable particularly if the paint sceam was black widow that many SP fans like. Furthermore from a historical perspective the NN was a short line and the interchange story was critical in bringing needed supplies in and product out. Having a predictable and dependable interchange was particularly import to mining short lines and even to the Electrical power plants of today. Faced with the inability of the Santa Fe and the SP to move Southern Arizona and New Mexico mining traffic, phelps dodge built the El Paso & Southwestern expansion to El Paso which resulted in the GH&SA sending a high level exec to talk to Mr. Douglas and company about keeping the copper on their line east of El Paso.

In the end if the train ride is the event then what you can sell is just the equipment. However if what you are selling something such as a historic adventure or special children of all ages event then you can add more to the experience. My first two rides on the C&TS we stopped and unloaded on the WB leg at Cumbres and Sublette. The only way to get a better perspective of such sites is to get out and walk around. This may mean expanding the complexity of operations to ensure a high quality experience for our guest. There are benefits from the paying of attention to their interest not ours. Continually working to improve the visitor experience is particularly important for keeping the return business.

Even if the museum has a collection of “unrelated equipment” you can still allow each piece to tell its story. Let us look at the collection in El Paso for a moment. Along with former El Paso & Northeastern, EP & SW, SP 2-8-0 3420 in El Paso also is a former Dinning car which Chris Stark says is from the Central Pacific. There is a 1936 SP box car from the first all steel orders of the SP, a SP tank car with double yoke couplers and 1920s flat along with two Santa Fe CE-2 cabooses and the Pullman car James Watt. Add in the historic El Paso & Southwestern #1 and its Midwest history prior to coming to the Southwest US and without turning a wheel you have a lot to talk about and keep the visitor interested in.


It is important for all of us to remember that if you are selling the locomotive then the type may be important but if you are selling another experience then make sure the customer is satisfied that you are giving them what they paid for.

Respectfully
Robby Peartree

Hi Robby, The situation you describe at the C&TS is very much a thing of the past. Under John Bush's leadership the railroad has really turned around and appears to be on a solid footing now. I was able to visit Chama this summer and was impressed by what I saw. The track and roadbed were in great shape the whole length of the railroad, with lots of fresh ballast, and new track has been laid to extend the wye at Chama and I believe also to rebuild the siding at Cresco. There were four operable engines this year (484, 487, and 489, plus 463), enough to have two in regular service each day (one in each direction), plus a third relief engine kept hot in Chama and a fourth in reserve, and I understand there were very few mechanical problems with any of the engines all season. The Friends of the C&TS continue to do an amazing job of restoring both the rolling stock and structures (RPO 54 is looking spiffy!), and a new passenger car restoration facility has been erected in Antonito.

The C&TS's major problem is its remote location, far from the usual tourist spots and population centers and with no way to get there except by driving. I think that with high gas prices (until recently), this has been a difficult proposition for many families. Nonetheless, while it's true that passenger numbers are reportedly down slightly this year as compared with last year, parlor car passengers are up, so revenue is stable and I think the railroad is in a good position going forward.

-Philip Marshall

Dear Mr. Marshall,

Please reread the title and discussion points of this thread. It is a simple fact that past events on the C&TS show the fact that just having enough steam locomotives to haul passengers does not bring them in. If we are not allowed to discuss the past and learn about a certain topic because it may paint one in a bad light then how do we learn anything?

The last passenger number I gave was taken before the Wolf Creek Trestle fire but after enough locomotives were available to pull the tonnages needed to carry the passengers but not enough time for a marketing plan to take hold. I also showed that the C&TS has not recovered to the levels of 2000 and 2001 despite having the same number of locomotives. WHAT I AM POINTING OUT IS HAVIG STEAM ENGINES AND SEATS DOES NOT MAJICALY FILL THEM IF YOU DO NOT ADVERTIZE AND WORK ON A PRODUCTIVE MARKETING PLAN. The great ridership restoration that was incorrectly forecast in 2005 for the C&TS was not by me now but by the commission back then. The problem may be is I have a friend who documented statements and then used final numbers to see how close they got to their goals and I am reporting the results to educate others the pitfalls of expecting motive power to sell tickets.

One of the passenger growth issues for the C&TS as I understand it is a lot of the old rider box cars have been converted back to just box cars reducing the total number of passenger seats available for a given day. Furthermore the new cars have more dead weight per passenger than the old rider box so the result is each locomotive working at capacity is effectively carrying fewer passengers per ton.

The Argument that the C&TS is remote does not explain the better annual numbers at the Durango & Silverton where they suffer from the same type of road network and distance issues. From personal experience, getting from Phoenix to Williams on I-17 and I-40 can be tricky in poor weather and most valley people are not practiced in driving in mountain winter conditions just like most Northern Arizonians are not used to driving in Phoenix Rush hour traffic.

Earlier arguments in this thread were that GCR benefited from having a desirable destination. Again the Polar Express does not go to the Grand Canyon and I brought up their Polar business so the destination argument becomes mute. Of the over 40 railroads involved in the Polar when I talked to Mr. Harper, GCR was over 10% of the total. Other tourist railroads such as the Heber Creeper are closer to large population center than Grand Canyon Railway is and yet GCR does a disproportionate part of the national total for Polar Express trips. That alone should kill any location arguments as many tourist railroads are closer to areas with high population densities than GCR. I was there some of the early growth and the rate of growth and levels reached have been amazing. It appears important to state again, the trips success has nothing to do with the type of motive power. GCR has a truly successful polar experience. Instead of creating excuses of why it will not work for anyone else why not study why it works and what issues they overcame for such great growth. Maybe, just maybe there might be something for someone else to use.

As for the position of the C&TS moving forward there are a lot of issues that the railroad still has to overcome.

Respectfully,
Robby Peartree

Durango has MUCH higher population and visitor numbers than Chama, and a lot more to see and do than just the train ride. The area also has a different (better) local attitude toward tourists and outsiders than Chama.

We seem to be veering a little off course from the subject of this thread and getting into a Polar Express debate.

Don't forget that lots and lots of roads that do the whole Santa/ North Pole "thing" don't call it the "Polar Express" but mostly the " North Pole Express" so as to avoid paying the rather substantial royalty required to use the Polar Express name. What I find difficult to understand is why anyone would think it's worth paying that substantial penalty to use that name & book etc. when the general public is plenty savy enough to know that " North Pole Express" is the same thing.

Here's a specific product that is closely identified with steam ( the whole Tom Hanks movie heavily featured the steam engine pulling the train) and even here the public readily accepts diesels substituting for steam as long as Santa shows up, and the hot chocolate and gift bell arrive on time !!

I ran yesterday at the NH&I and did my usual photo gig in front of the engine between each run and of the 500 plus photos I did,...... not a single person asked about motive power. We carried North of 2,000 guests yesterday and I asked the train crew if anyone had broached the motive power issue and the answer was 1 older man ( a grandpa with 2 grand daughters) said he was looking forward to riding behind # 40 and was disappointed she was absent but overall was mostly there for the 2 grand kids so no big deal.

Therefore, it seems strongly evident that even with a product strongly associated with steam if there are other components ( Santa, North Pole,Murder Mystery, Dinner,Pumpkin etc., etc.) driving the experience....the motive power is very secondary at most.

IMHO-Ross Rowland

Having experience with two relatively close tourist railroads, both of which have steam, I can definitely say that while steam usually isn't why people come to ride the train, 9 times out of 10 it adds to their experience. At both railroads when steam isn't running I usually get at least one person asking "wheres the steam engine?"

I do feel that steam preservation has a future; a lot of kids the past 30 or so years grew up watching Thomas The Tank Engine and The Polar Express has become a Christmas tradition in its own right.

Steam certainly does fascinate some youngsters, even today. Take a look at the kid the light green shirt chase after Frisco 1630 at IRM starting at minute 7:30 in this recent You Tube video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W83r34e1eNw

Poor mom is having a heck of a time keeping up!

That brings up another perspective: maybe steam isn't important for some operators if it isn't s critical component of the brand or mission they are promoting - but is that mostly because we have not done a great job of exposing potential visitors to steam? It seems that there's a good chance that small children find it interesting, even if on television rather than in person, so maybe if we had more of it to experience it in person more people of all ages might find it more interesting? Do we grow our own audiences preferences or wait and hope they grow them as we would like them to? Can we be proactive or simply reactive to what we perceive is reality?

dave

In the last almost fifty years as a railroader I have been involved in handling several excursion runs on various railroads, some steam and some diesel. I also have been involved with several museum operations. From my perspective which is a lot like Ross and Randy G.'s this is what I see and it really boils down to cost.

For main line steam and even some diesel excursions the future is very limited due to lack of capacity, liability security, and safety issues. I am pretty sure that many NS operating people really breathed a sigh of relief when NS cancelled the rest of their steam operations mid 2014. For the modern freight railroad these are a challenge and often don't produce much in the way of positive public relations. In fact they do the very opposite which is to attract folks trackside which now days is totally freightening. It is now proven by Operation Lifesaver that while vehicle train collisions are down almost 20%, tresspasser incidents are up almost 50%. I am sure I have voiced this opinion before and may not be welcome on this site but after teaching the rules for a number of years and understanding how easy it is to get hurt around the rails, I personally want to avoid any possibility of the public doing so. I think this is one reason why most railroads no longer allow photo runbys because the possibility of injuries.

Okay then let's talk about museum operations which I believe offers a much safer venue for the public to enjoy trains due to a controlled environment, lower speed operations, and better security. Here the public, can enjoy a short ride ( anything over an hour and kids get restless folks need to use the rest room,they get hungry and they are bored) walk around the grounds, buy a gift and then be on their way home. Now, does steam add to the ride? Sure, but it is not only expensive to re-build, maintain and operate but the clock starts ticking the first day you fire it up after a 15 year re-build and then there had better be a plan in effect to create enough revenue to create a savings account for the next re-build. This is why I believe there is a declining ability for many operations to run steam and more likely portable operations as the Grammlings.

Just my opinion from a guy who has spent a lot of time on the rails and really likes steam operations...in a controlled environment.

Barry

...

Actually, no it does not become moot. The Grand Canyon is a year round destination, though it is much slower in the wintertime. There is enough passenger demand to keep services running, though not at the peak season levels.

What is being raised here is more of the issue that railroads must have a variety of products to offer. One size does not fit all. At TVRM, we lost potential sales due to visitors who thought an hour train ride was too long. It all depends on the base market that is being targeted. Having different rides of varying lengths maximizes the opportunity to capture a sale. Motive power sells, but only to a point.

Dear Mr. Walker

How have you convinced yourself that the Grand Canyon has to be the attraction for their ridership? A lot of the ridership for the 900+ capacity Polar Express is out of the Phoenix metro area. They drive to Williams (which is 60+ miles from Grand Canyon) and ride the train and then return home. Look at Grand Canyon Railway’s schedule and you will see the early polar trips leave before the Canyon train comes back.
I congratulate Grand Canyon Railway on developing a new independent business that in the past has represented 1/3 of their total annual ridership.

Robby Peartree

That is true for the Polar Express season, which is off season for the railroad. The fact is that the majority of the GCR railroad's passengers use the GCR as a primary mode of transportation to the national park. It's called living in the area and understanding the operations of the National Park System. The NPS is gradually restricting automobile access to the South Rim with an eye toward eventually barring private automobiles. The link to Tusayan and the Grand Canyon Airport have been examined but it appears that the demand at present does not justify construction-most likely buses would be used to transport visitors from those locations to the park.

As for convenience, you have to want to go there to do it. It's about three hours one way to Williams-if the roads are clear. Wanna bet that about half of their visitors come from Las Vegas? That trip is just under four hours. The fact that they have a hotel package probably significantly increases their patronage due to the distance from either city.

Here in Denmark we run a Christmas train Sat/Sun x 3 weekends that starts close in to Copenhagen and goes north about 1.5 hours to a tree farm, does a 1.5 hour layover, and returns. The whole route is served by 3+ per hour regular commute trains. There is no entertainment or food service on board. Most of the coaches are wooden with wood seats, and toilets are dry hopper.

The train is about 9 coaches or maybe 400 passengers, and all trips were sold out November 24. The ticket price is like four times the regular transit fare.

Certainly steam plays a role in the demand, but also the old coaches and the open platforms (which you can ride on without limit).