GTW 5629

J.David · **Posted:** Tue Jan 15, 2013 3:44 pm

Dear Howard (and anyone elso who cares about long dead steam locomotives):
Nickle Plate Road No. 965 was scrapped c.1972 at East Chicago, Indiana.
I helped Richard prepare it for movement from an M.S.Kaplan yard near the lake to another yard adjacent to the Indiana Harbor Canal (where it was scrapped).
I was shocked (and some upset) when it got cut, Richard said that it would be safer there.
The 965 was a fairly nice chooch. It was fairly complete, only missing the bronze bits, and not totally worn out. Kaplan had saved it to show his children what a steam locomotive was.
Oh well...
J.David

Howard P. · **Posted:** Tue Jan 15, 2013 3:57 pm

I stand corrected. Did RJ own it at that point (the move between scrap yards) or was it always owned by Kaplan? M. S. K. had kept it from ca. 1959 until 1972?

"Safer in a scrap yard"??? My goodness, that's a rather naive thought.

Howard P.

Les Beckman · **Joined:** Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:25 pm **Posts:** 6482

Howard P. wrote:

You forgot another casualty: another Jensen locomotive, NKP 2-8-2 #965 (or was it 964?), also cut up in Chicago about the same time 5632 was rendered.

Howard P.

Yes Howard, you are correct. But Jensen discovered the 965 already IN the scrap yard. True, it never made it out of there, but I am not familiar with the details. Perhaps someone else might know.

Les

Les Beckman · **Joined:** Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:25 pm **Posts:** 6482

PFlyer55 wrote:

Yes 4963 was saved, but not by Mr. Jensen’s actions. The IRM stepped in to save it at the last minute by trading with the scrappers the five (5) GTW 0-8-0’s that came from Northwestern Steel & Wire. I guess if he had unlimited funds, we wouldn’t be talking about all this (so I shouldnt be so hard on him). The one advantage of being my age is that I had the opportunity to ride behind 5629 & 5632. I have also seen the 0-8-0’s in action several times at NS&W.

*PFlyer55 -

Jensen saved the engine from being sold for scrap by the Burlington in the first place. If he hadn't, IRM would not even have had the opportunity to offer five (5) ex-GTW 0-8-0's in exchange for the Mike. I am very glad the 4963 was saved but I will let others determine if a 5 for 1 trade was fair.

Is there someone out there who had the experience of going to NS&W to see and photograph the 0-8-0’s in action? I can tell you it was a real experience. If you came to town to photograph the engines without making arrangements, you will have Plant Security on your case within minutes. The first time this happened to me I thought I was going to jail, but they would merely stop you and politely direct you to go to their administration building in town and get permission to take pictures. I think it was Mr. Dillon himself who would give you permission to do so. I remember a few different times this older guy would interview and meet with us and give us the necessary permission and access to photograph the engines, even on plant property as I recall.

* I visited Sterling a few times, and even was a guest of a NRHS chapter on an "official vistit" that allowed us to get into NWS&W's shop building. What I most remember about that shop visit was the old steam locomotive headlights that were laying around.

A good definition of Mr. Dillon, in my opinion, was that he was an “old school eccentric.” I was told that he was somewhat of a micro manager. The story was that If you worked for him and wanted to buy a part he would review all requisitions and tell you where you could find one in the plant if he was aware of one existing there. I got the feeling that Mr. Dillon actually liked people to come and ask permission to photograph his babies, the steam locomotives. Thank goodness for that.

Alexander D. Mitchell IV · **Posted:** Sat Dec 27, 2014 12:39 am

This just surfaced on the Flickr feed of the Barriger Library, from the Robert G. Lewis collection:

Lewis005 by barrigerlibrary, on Flickr

Richard Glueck · **Posted:** Sat Dec 27, 2014 10:53 am

Pictures exist of GTW 5629 being butchered, but to my knowledge, nobody ever took pictures of the CB&Q 5632 being cut up. Unbelievably tragic that a man dedicated to the preservation of steam locomotives would be connected to the conclusive destruction of several. What is probably worse is the ability of his foes to wield the courts into allowing such wanton destruction to occur.
I recall the 5629 as being one of the most popular excursion locomotives of her post-steam era. CB&Q 5632 was considered an "ultimate save".
Sickening.

aswright · **Posted:** Sat Dec 27, 2014 2:54 pm

Something I find amusingly ironic:
GTW 5629 scrapped, GTW 5632 preserved
CBQ 5629 preserved, CBQ 5632 scrapped

John Risley · **Joined:** Tue Aug 24, 2004 10:34 pm **Posts:** 965

I never met Dick Jensen. I recall the many excursions he was running with his locomotives, but I was young and did not see or ride on any of them. I do know a few people who knew him personally and actually worked on his locomotives and dealt directly with him. While he obviously made some poor choices, I think he deserves more respect than a lot of folks give him. If you want to denounce someone for destroying a few locomotives than you maybe should consider other organizations for what they have done to steam locomotives as well. I don't think any of us or any organization actively tries to ruin steam locomotives. There is usually events that lead up to poor decisions and good intentions paving the road to hell. Stupid is stupid, no two ways about it. But trying to do what he did and succeeding as well as he did for as long as he did is quite a feat. Health and finances will derail any of us. Add Mr Murphy and trying to accomplish what he did. Hind sight is easy enough to come up with. When things were going right he was a hero, when things went south, he was deemed a zero?

Right or wrong I would of felt privileged to have met him. In my eyes those who are movers and shakers are amazing people. They often accomplish great things, but when great accomplishments crash people seem to forget what went right as well. Like kids blaming there parents for everything that went wrong in there lives. Failing to remember that parents are human too and they very well may have done a whole lot of good things that seem to be forgotten. For those out there that have done anything near what Dick Jensen accomplished, I commend you. No dog in the fight, just think it unfair to demonize the guy as railfan history often does. Regards, John.

p51 · **Posted:** Sat Dec 27, 2014 3:27 pm

John Risley wrote:

I think he deserves more respect than a lot of folks give him. If you want to denounce someone for destroying a few locomotives than you maybe should consider other organizations for what they have done to steam locomotives as well. I don't think any of us or any organization actively tries to ruin steam locomotives. There is usually events that lead up to poor decisions and good intentions paving the road to hell. Stupid is stupid, no two ways about it. But trying to do what he did and succeeding as well as he did for as long as he did is quite a feat. Health and finances will derail any of us. Add Mr Murphy and trying to accomplish what he did. Hind sight is easy enough to come up with. When things were going right he was a hero, when things went south, he was deemed a zero?

I think the reason was that he allowed locomotives to be scrapped when others were scrambling to help him out and all that help was refused. Granted, that help might have caused more harm than good and we'll never know for sure.
I often wonder what would've happened had Jensen allowed the SRR to lease this loco to be changed into a mockup of a PS-4. You could argue that it might be with us today, had that happen. Yeah, it was his loco and he didn't have to let SRR get their hands on it, but for the benefit of the locomotive itself, that clearly would have been the best thing to happen to it.
But the day he removed the brasses from 5629 to keep it from being moved (which could easily be argued led directly to scrapping as the only real alternative at that point), I think that sealed his fate in the eyes of railfans everywhere.

Alexander D. Mitchell IV · **Posted:** Sat Dec 27, 2014 5:45 pm

I've been privileged to have met a few of the "heroes" of rail preservation over the years, including the late George Hart and several other major and minor players in the field.

Suffice it to say that, while some of these folks definitely executed what many in our field label "heroic" deeds or "rescues" of equipment, they also all share a modest degree of what the British politely term "eccentricity" and uncharitably term "madness." I'm not sure whether this is a pre-requisite or we train them accordingly. I'm reminded of the episode of The Big Bang Theory where Penny says of Sheldon (the railfan) out of his earshot, "I love the guy, but he is one serious whack-a-doodle!"

In my own circle, I can count up one "boomer" loco owner and preservationist who has been effectively "homeless" for about two years now; a late collector whose house had to be navigated sideways to squeeze past all the ephemera he saved (even up the stairs!); a guy whose "stash" we're sworn to secrecy on; a chap who at one point owned seven automobiles but was driving a borrowed car because none of the seven was either roadworthy or could pass a gas station without needing to fill up; a guy who descended deep into job-related paranoia about his presence online; and a ..... well, if I get into too much detail here, someone may recognize himself/herself.

I will suggest that, as much as I respect private property rights and individual freedoms, one of the contributing functions of rail museums and rail history societies is to ameliorate such eccentricities, and through collective action help to correct the flaws of individual "whack-a-doodles," no matter how much genius they may have.

Richard Glueck · **Posted:** Sat Dec 27, 2014 6:46 pm

Well said, Alex.

rlsteam · **Posted:** Sat Dec 27, 2014 7:58 pm

Just FYI -- GTW 5629 in happier days. I photographed her several times while in revenue service on the Grand Trunk Western in Michigan. The upper photo shows her on a local freight at Bellevue, Michigan, in a break-in run after shopping at Battle Creek. The lower photo shows her at Durand on 1954, on train 56 between Muskegon and Detroit.

ctjacks · **Posted:** Sat Dec 27, 2014 8:03 pm

It bothers me when people throw around the concept of a "title" to a steam locomotive (or a passenger car, or caboose, or other piece of railroad equipment) when it comes to disputes such as the one several parties had with Mr. Jensen. (I have been involved in the roundhouse/property owner side of these disputes for another group over the years.) In my very humble, and possibly misinformed, opinion, there isn't a title to a boxcar, or a passenger car, or a steam locomotive - at least not in the way there is a title to an automobile, or a truck. Trying to apply the concept of a title to a piece of railroad equipment just confuses the lawyers, courts, and property owners when a dispute arises.

What experiences do the other members of this board have on this topic?

Chris J.

Alexander D. Mitchell IV · **Posted:** Sat Dec 27, 2014 8:17 pm

The subject has been discussed on this forum before as I recall, with no solid conclusions.

The best anecdote I've had along those lines was learning that an associate of mine had "claimed ownership" of a somewhat "orphaned" locomotive, and when I asked him to his face "I'm told you're now the owner of [XY&Z 567]; would you like to confirm that?" He hesitatingly replied "Well, it depends--do you want to buy it from me, or hand me another &#*>@! bill?"

Regrettably for many in this field, possession is 95/100th of the law. Absent an explicit contract outlining in anal-retentive, excruciating detail the specifics of any arrangement between purported owner and owner of the track upon which it sits (even for transport), that's pretty much the way it all goes down.

Imagine attempting to "repossess" a railroad car or locomotive for non-payment of rent, or evicting a tenant loco/car for lack of payment of rent. Believe it or not, it has happened. I was paid to help "repossess" a leased passenger car from one railroad back to its owner's siding hundreds of miles away. The lessor only discovered it, and called in outrage, literally as the car was being switched back to the owner's sidings.

Les Beckman · **Joined:** Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:25 pm **Posts:** 6482

John Risley wrote:

I never met Dick Jensen. I recall the many excursions he was running with his locomotives, but I was young and did not see or ride on any of them. I do know a few people who knew him personally and actually worked on his locomotives and dealt directly with him. While he obviously made some poor choices, I think he deserves more respect than a lot of folks give him. If you want to denounce someone for destroying a few locomotives than you maybe should consider other organizations for what they have done to steam locomotives as well. I don't think any of us or any organization actively tries to ruin steam locomotives. There is usually events that lead up to poor decisions and good intentions paving the road to hell. Stupid is stupid, no two ways about it. But trying to do what he did and succeeding as well as he did for as long as he did is quite a feat. Health and finances will derail any of us. Add Mr Murphy and trying to accomplish what he did. Hind sight is easy enough to come up with. When things were going right he was a hero, when things went south, he was deemed a zero?

Right or wrong I would of felt privileged to have met him. In my eyes those who are movers and shakers are amazing people. They often accomplish great things, but when great accomplishments crash people seem to forget what went right as well. Like kids blaming there parents for everything that went wrong in there lives. Failing to remember that parents are human too and they very well may have done a whole lot of good things that seem to be forgotten. For those out there that have done anything near what Dick Jensen accomplished, I commend you. No dog in the fight, just think it unfair to demonize the guy as railfan history often does. Regards, John.

John -

Well said! I knew Dick only slightly (we were both members of the same railroad club in Chicago at that time) but not personally for sure. The fact is that he saved some locomotives that wouldn't have been preserved if not for him.

Fact - Almost certain that CB&Q 5632 would have been scrapped by the railroad if he hadn't purchased it and its assorted parts. The fact it got scrapped later was probably mostly not his fault.

Fact - METRA was responsible for the scrapping of GTW 5629 because it was in a location where they were going to build a repair facility that never got built. They could have left the Pacific sitting in place until something else could have been worked out but there was "a rush to judgement" by that organization.

Fact - CB&Q 2-8-2 #4963 (now at IRM) probably would have ended up in the Northwestern Steel & Wire scrap line after its lease to Bevier & Southern expired, if Jensen had not purchased it from the railroad.

Fact - Georgia Northern 4-6-0 #102 would also probably not have survived if not purchased by Dick.

There are some other examples of steam preservation too. He had his shortcomings, and they were many. But overall, I think his efforts deserve better than what most folks currently give him.

Les