Just how often was there a bill of sale for such transactions? In this era of technology and people who sue at the drop of the hat, we're used to getting bills of sale for everything. Back in those days, transactions like that were done on a handshake.

Let's assume grandpa or whoever really did it right. He goes through official channels and actually buys the plate instead of "liberating" it. They negotiate a price, (the boss gets a bottle of whiskey) and he pays, and he gets an official receipt from the person who owns the equipment. Not likely, but it's hard to prove something didn't happen.

So, that was what, the late 1970's? Now, 45 years later, do you really think he'd have that bill of sale in his files even if it did exist? Seriously? A receipt for a hunk of scrap metal you paid next to nothing more over 40 years ago? Heck, most people can't even find the deed for their house 40 years later!

Well, I guess sooner or later I was going to make an account over here.

I was the original poster for the now-deleted thread over on TO. There were actually a couple pages of responses to it before I had it deleted. Since this was around 10pm PST, and within the first 4 or so hours of the auction listing going up, we didn't really have any info from the seller about the provenance of the plate and frame. The fact that reproductions were made over the years was brought up, though there was some debate as to if they were all plastic or if metal ones were made. While I don't own any BLW plates, similar ALCo ones have some heft and would be difficult to mount in such a frame. Due to the lack of evidence one way or the other, and to not implicate an innocent seller, the thread was deleted.

The next day the seller responded to my inquiry, stating that it looked like metal and added some weight to the frame, but had not opened the picture to check yet. Not too long after this the listing was pulled. I am including the pictures from the auction here.

If it is the real deal, hopefully it finds its way home. If not, it is one hell of a fake, one that fooled not only myself, but several other collectors as well.

Assuming that's an ordinary frame with ordinary components (cardboard etc.) could it support a real plate like that? Of course there is no telling what's there as it could be glued to card stock that is itself glued to a thin piece of something much more substantial replacing the ordinary back.

I would think that even a plastic cast replica, as thick as that is, would seem to have some heft to to it compared to the photos or papers normally put in a frame like that.

My wife does commercial art framing for a living. Not now and then, DAILY. Not just pictures, but artifacts such as team jerseys, presentation sports items, etc.

She took one look at that picture, heard my description of what the plate's size and weight should be if real, and her eyes widened, her head shook side to side as she said "NO-O-O-O!!!"

She elaborated: It's theoretically possible they have it mounted to a bracket of metal within the frame, and have the mat and backboard specially cut to hide the plate bracket, but then you'd be charging $100 or so just for the specialty work. And they were starting with an opening bid of $5???? In addition, you'd need a special mounting bracket on the back for hanging, preferably from 2 or 3 stud-supported nails/bolts.

She said that even if that were a plastic replica, she could not in good conscience set it in a frame like that just glued to the mat board--the mat board or backboard would come apart eventually from the weight. "It has bolt holes--why not bolt it to the backboard?" (Of course, "good conscience" or common sense is often missing on eBay auctions, if you get my drift.)

I got the impression he did not do the mounting. I also thought the $5 start was odd but he said he starts all auctions there.

Back in the day when I was involved with MIGN and we leased the Sharks from owner John Kunzie, he supplied us with a stack of epoxy resin replica plates. John also owned Castolite, which offered kits for making castings among other things. It was MIGN's practice to replace stolen plastic plates. As you can imagine, some did "fall off" since they were just bolted on. Due to shrinkage in the castings, the replica bolt holes didn't quite line up with the holes in the locomotive side sill. The plates would break off a piece around the bolt hole's thin edge. I personally handed damaged plates to the nearest railfan as we replaced them. Based on the number of Kodak yellow boxes that accumulated where ever the Sharks were parked, we should approached Kodak for a revenue sharing agreement. To my knowledge, none of the replica plates was painted while they were bolted to a unit.

Alex Huff, who later purchased brass replica plates for two of MIGN Alcos, RS2 1501, ex-GB&W 304 and RS3 1554, ex-CNW 1554, nee-Madison & Litchfield 303. They were mounted on the units for a while. I have no idea what happened to them. They were obvious fakes since Alco plates of that era were cast iron.

I doesn't have to be mat board for that backing, I once mounted a WW2 ship plate onto a painted piece of Masonite, and that plate probably weighted as much as a real plate of this type.
I'm not saying that was done, but I am saying it is possible.

Alexander thanks for the correction below.

No.

The SAL Baldwin plate at THIS auction:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/BALWIN-LIMA-HAM ... 1370715259

is a separate auction of another plate from a DIFFERENT Baldwin loco in the possession of the SAME railroad/owners as the Baldwin Sharks.

The "Shark plate" auction:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Baldwin-Westing ... 1755114841

Different sellers, different plates and numbers.

I have the builder's plate from B&O 851X, an RF16B, construction number 75414. It is clearly an original. It is iron. It weighs 5.4 lbs. I have the Cincinnatian sign from the side of one of the two combines. It weighs no less than 4 times the builder plate. It is in a frame far less substantial than the one pictured in this thread. It has hung on my wall for years with no problems.

As somebody else mentioned, what really matters is the mounting board, not the frame itself. Do you have any idea what they used and how it was mounted? Is it simply matte board, Masonite, plywood? In any case, we're grasping at digital straws here, the backing in that photo could be cardboard or it could be plywood backed, there's really no way to just looking at a photo.

Until the buyer gives you some more info, there's really no way to be certain. "Gee, I haven't checked" sounds like a way of saying "Well, no, it's not, but I don't really want to say that..." Then again, the dang thing started for $5? Heck, I'd pay $20 for that setup, even knowing the plate was nothing but cast resin, and still be perfectly happy with it. It's not like he's asking $5K for it!