Our museum will be receiving an Alco S3 in the coming months that is being donated to us. There is a tremendous amount of debate going on internally as to whether we should "stuff and mount it" or receive it and maintain it as operational.

Our facility will be a covered facility, but not enclosed, with 110/220VAC and we can run the engine back and forth on about 300 feet of track. There are SOME odds we could acquire some trackage 3-10 miles long adjacent to the museum, but that could be 10 years away. Or the end of this year. Or likely somewhere in between. Or never.

The pros of receiving it and maintaining it are a) It's a running locomotive!! b) It could be motive power if a significant line of track is acquired.

The negatives are: a) Its an OLD locomotive and parts are becoming more rare. b) Lots of inspection required just to fire it up (rats & birds nests) with arcing, potential fire hazard to adjacent wood equipment, c) Not enough space to reach transition d) expensive block heater required e) Expensive power bill during winter f) Have to dig a pit for proper inspection g) fuel costs h) manpower to exercise the loco i) Soot and smoke falling on the rest of the static display, grime on the ceiling of the car barn. j) Leaking fluids- hey, its an Alco. And at the end of the day, even if you spent all of the effort and time to do that, and you put her on the rails, and then the water pump craps out (see a), all of that is wasted. k) If put back in service, could you even get a blue card for it?

On the other hand, if you know you are bringing her in to stuff and mount her, she'll probably never run again (gaskets drying, aforementioned water pump weakness). But she'll be easier to keep.

Any constructive thoughts and insight appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

Matt Bumgarner
Alexander Chapter-NRHS

Another option might be to find a place where it could be used productively in exchange for keeping it up, rather than bringing it to your landlocked site. Once you eliminate the small box of "it has to be here" many options open up for you to capitalize on it rather than have it eat up resources, while preserving it until you can put it to use at home.

New Hope Valley is bringing their Alco S1 back from the dead - I'm sure you would find some good collaboration and experience there to help you with the technicalities.

dave

I thought you guys were a narrow gauge museum? Beware of mission creep.

Well, its the "Narrow Gauge & Shortline Museum" with our chief benefactor being said shortline!!

But your advice is certainly valid!

Thanks,

Matt

I would stabilize and mount it. If you may someday / never have enough track to run on rather than keeping something in operable condition for minimal use I am sure the funds can go further stabilizing or restoring other pieces in the collection.

If you had track available today with regular ability for use then by all means the unit should be kept operable.

If the unit is donated to you, can you sell or trade it for something more worthwhile?

Is the unit fairly original? Looking at the unit as some do classic cars, they want the vintage, all original barn finds. If this unit is original, this may be all the more reason to keep it stabilized and not in operation as we get further and further away from any units original build date the "original fabric" tends to get used up or replaced.

Just my opinion.

I would think you would be prepped for any leaking fluids already with existing equipment, its just something to be ready for. Block heater? Prep it for winter storage, like an automobile it should fire back up. Is this an operating engine? I would think from time to time you might just go out and clean your equipment regardless of if you own the engine or not. If it operating/non-operating doesnt matter, you will have any certain level of attention/maintenance. My personal opinion is a better restoration is a fully functional engine, if you believe it has potential for operation, take that direction, treat it like a hobby something to do. As far as funds go I always say/stress.... FUND DRIVE man....
IRM has fund drive slots for all its equipment, donate to it, its progress can move forward.
I wouldn't make a decision based on money, its more the desire, money can be worked out, thats not the worry, its the motivation. You might get the option for 3-10 miles of track, why not, take steps to get ready for it and happy passengers.

Unavailable parts, thats part of the challenges how industrious can you be, are you prepared with a shop? Something to think, the 765 first restoration was totally outside.
Working on the engine would be a learning experience, so I say have at it.

I would put it to work somewhere, if you don't want to run it. Why? It's an ALCO S3, not the most uncommon loco.....If it has EE rollers and coupler blocks it can probably ship by rail, thus it could possibly make you money.....until you're ready to display it or use it yourselves....

Matt -

Here is my personal opinion. Take it for what it's worth (probably not much).

You guys are getting an operable diesel. It's an asset. Use it for the betterment of the museum. As a static display, probably not worth much in the way of attracting visitors. BUT, give them a ride behind it, let them have a cab visit while idling, let them blow the horn and operate the bell, repeat the ride (300' x 4 times = 1200 feet) and you have income AND good public relations. If your museum is already pulling in enough income as it is, you probably don't need to do any of this.

I'm assuming here that the 300' of track is NOT a part of the short line and doesn't cross any public roads so not a part of the general railroad system and thus the engine doesn't have to be blue carded nor meet certain other requirements. If this is not correct, please ignore the previous paragraph.

Addressing some of your other concerns:

Block heater - Not needed if you drain the water during cold weather months. We do this with our diesels every fall.

Pit nice, but not necessary.

Fire hazard and soot and smoke - We have an Alco S1 (same locomotive as yours except for the trucks) and have never had problems with sparks from the exhaust. Yes, Alco's smoke, but don't operate on days where smoke might drift across your wood equipment, although I have to say that proper running can minimize smoke.

Parts are harder to get, but not an insurmountable problem.

My suggestion is to try it. Maybe you won't like it. But maybe you will.

Nuff said.

Les

One other factor to consider:

I am safe in assuming that this is not only a home-town railroad that has a sense of history, but also the namesake of your NRHS Chapter. Therefore, this is NOT just some random switcher, but something that is being donated specifically to you for posterity's sake, not just some tax write-off.

If I'm correct, that does limit your options a bit. Leasing it to a quarry or scrapyard in another state does not seem like a wise course of action.

It may be cheaper to start it and run the engine back and forth a few times a year and keep it active. Dead batteries, main generators, traction motor issues as examples are expensive to replace or deal with and may not do well sitting for a long period of time. Fuel and a little attention through out the year will be less costly for you in the long run. I am sure you will find more than one Volunteer willing to sit in the cab and go back and forth. Like it was said before it might help your museum a bit more running than not.

A dead locomotive excites no one, nor does it make money.

The negatives are: a) Its an OLD locomotive and parts are becoming more rare.

But Alcos are not extinct, and those old parts will last a long time if not asked to work too hard.

b) Lots of inspection required just to fire it up (rats & birds nests)

This is a negative? Don't you have any mechanically minded volunteers? This is a nice weekend project.

c) Not enough space to reach transition
Oh well, that only fails to cycle one drum controller in the cabinet. Not a big deal.

d) expensive block heater required
Drain it in the fall.

e) Expensive power bill during winter
Nah. At worst you will have a few watts draw for a battery minder.

f) Have to dig a pit for proper inspection
To inspect what? I've changed out brushes on an S2 without a pit. Find a young, skinny guy to crawl under there.

g) fuel costs
One tank will last most of the summer running once a weekend for an hour or two.

h) manpower to exercise the loco
your group must have no volunteers. How many groups have a membership base that you just cannot get them to take the throttle of a locomotive? maybe the reason you don't have volunteers is because you don't have anything to excite them to come out. A functioning locomotive will bring people out of the woodwork.

i) Soot and smoke falling on the rest of the static display, grime on the ceiling of the car barn.
Now you are just finding problems :)

j) Leaking fluids
newpig.com

- hey, its an Alco. And at the end of the day, even if you spent all of the effort and time to do that, and you put her on the rails, and then the water pump craps out (see a), all of that is wasted.

Not really. Get another water pump, or a local machine shop may be able to repair it.

k) If put back in service, could you even get a blue card for it?
Only if a blue card is needed to run over 300 feet of insular track. Blue cards have more to do with safety standards and inspections and not the type of equipment. As far as the FRA is concerned you are doing interplant switching.

Now let me ask you a real question. If this little bit of work needed to keep this loco running is going to be such an apparently huge burden on your organization, are you sure you would be ready to take over any amount of trackage for operation? Read the Catskill's threads to see what it takes to maintain a railroad.

Keep in mind there is a 3rd option, other then Run or Stuff, ... Hibernate

**Before you start talk to marine diesel mechanics (tug boat ones if you can find one) and see if you can fog the engine, I know it is done for gasoline engines, not sure about diesels, especially 2 cycle.**

--Drain the coolant, unless previous owner converted her to use antifreeze, if converted put catch pans where she drips and top off tank. If not converted make sure to blow out all the water as there can be locations where it will be trapped. Re-blow out after 1 month to catch what was stuck to the walls.
--Drain the diesel fuel tank.
--Cap the exhaust with weighted tub, so wind can't blow it off. Make sure cap sits on exhaust not body, otherwise condensation and critters could get in.
--Remove air filters and seal air intake with metal & strapping.
--Have the oil tested (pH mainly) if good, leave as is, if acidic change at least half ~75 gal IIRC. Make or obtain an electric oil pump (can be portable) , 1/4 gpm @ 40 psi is all you need, run pump once a year for an hour and bar over the engine 3 rotations, with compression relief valves open and pump still running.
--Put socks full of mothballs under the generator, hang in the electrical cabinets and in hood nose to keep critters out, change as needed.
--Sell the batteries (scrap if bad or if useable to another museum/user). If it will be at least 5 years before you light her off, then they will most likely be shot, even with a battery maintainer. New set was just under $4000 2-3 years ago and most manufacturers post an expected life span of 5-8 years under normal use.

Good luck,
Rich C.

Its a group effort to run an engine and museum, but its people working during the week coming out and do something else with their lives on the weekend, something worthwhile. Thats why Catskill is working out despite the trail rumblings.

partee on man.

You do have the innate sense that this is a major fork in the road for the organization, and it is. Some preservation outfits and museums have gone through the rather painful exercise of mission definition and planning, a lot haven't.

There are two truths being spoken here: one is that working on something that moves, anything, steam or diesel, is the magic elixir on developing a team of dedicated volunteers. It's the sparkplug. On a viable project, it's often even the turning point - getting a real piece of movable equipment on the site, and start working on it.

The downside is the building of expectations that after we do get it runnable...well, we simply have to run it. We need a railroad. We need track. We need enough now ticket sales to cover our operating expenses. Suddenly you find yourself becoming an excursion railroad that exists to have a place to run, not necessarily because there was ever a sustainable market there to begin with, and you're barely scraping by at best and passing the hat. And that's the trap that many smaller operations have fallen into; it's here because we had a locomotive we fixed up, and some track, that we started running. It, well, just sorta happened. And the guys that thought this was a great idea are now not with us anymore.

Whatever you decide to do, the group has to be able to seriously self-examine itself and where it wants to be when it grows up, and think and behave like a sustainable business. It's a great opportunity, for sure, but it's also how way too many 'museum railroads' can look back and say, yeah, that's when it first happened, and now, well, we're not exactly sure how to survive given what we've gotten ourselves into.

I'll be the first to say that this is somewhat self-serving on the planning side and admit to it, but the part of my job I like the least is 'forensic consulting', where things are in deep, deep trouble and you THEN have to go back to this internal mission decision process before you can climb back out. No matter how much of a 'people problem' it is right now, facing it later doesn't help.