And generate greater public interest in railway preservation, riding trains, steam, technology.........people do not get interested in things to which they have no exposure. This is a proposal for a national and notorious amount of exposure for a very popular and positive purpose. It will also be done well if it happens, unlike some other train riding experiences which only served to teach visitors that they don't ever want to support us again.

Stop thinking like a railfan.

dave

Dave
Yes I thought of all those but I'm not convinced. Did the American Freedom Train have a positive, neutral or negative effect on preservation? People can feel free to tell me because I don't know.

Did the 4449 preservation spring from it? If so, then a definite positive.

What about the other locos? How did they fare? That Reading loco?

How did the modified passenger equipment fare? Preserved or rendered into useless carcasses?

If this train is a clone of the Freedom Train, then we should be able to measure the impact it had on preservation.

Thinking like a railfan? No sir, not me.

Railfans will offer every kind of justification to see a steam locomotive running. They will invent excuses, like, "oh we are doing this for research to learn about steam." (See the high-speed Santa Fe loco team, or the T1 Trust). But the reality is that my university dismantled its old steam training lab for more high tech research because steam is an old, mature technology.

The railfans say, "oh these excursions provide immeasurable good public relations" (see UP steam program fans). But they can never quantify it. Fans will say anything to defend steam locomotives, even condemning leaders who want clean air and less coal smoke to improve our health and natural environment.

Make no mistake, I have almost nothing in common with the "railfan" ideology, but I do love to see serious, museum quality preservation.

You are missing the real motivation behind these repeated plans ... to find a sucker ... sorry ... I mean ... obtain a "sponsor," to pay for a certain locomotive's restoration.

They say the definition of insanity is doing the same thing, over and over again, and expecting different results. I'm wondering how many times we have to go through the ritual of a big announcement, all the foamers working themselves up into a frenzy over said plans, and the whole thing quietly fizzling out, before more folks start to notice the same pattern repeating itself.

In other news, I hear Brett Favre is thinking about trying to play in the NFL again ... ;-)

That's what we are all in the business of doing. Suckers can be the people that ride our trains, the foundations and grantors who find our projects worth supporting and ourselves who donate our time and money to making a project happen. Ross has the advantage of a business plan big enough to solicit a relative few high rollers and for a purpose far greater than those most of us have, which is our own selfish personal gratification. I'm sure he will be personally gratified if it comes to pass, but it may also do a lot of good for many others along the way, which few of our projects do.

He's not the enemy - and if his proposals are successful, it does no harm and potentially some good for the rest of us. I'm not worried about projecting the realistic chance for success - the amount of response that will prove or disprove it is built into the proposal, so all we have to do is patiently sit back and see what happens, which also does us no harm, and is a good discipline to encourage.

dave

I really don't understand why people insist on bashing this proposal.

Regardless of the past, lets look at a few things here:

This proposal includes bringing live steam to many who have never seen a steam locomotive under steam; waving the flag of supporting our injured veterans which further increases the outreach potential.

As a part of this, a 4-8-4 is restored to steam, and other locomotives get a chance to stretch their legs on the main line. How often on this forum is it that we complain of no where to run large steam locomotives? This gives us a chance to take big steam out on the road. I can think of no less than six 4-8-4s, (and possibly two more) two 2-8-4s, two 2-10-2s, a 2-8-2, and a 4-8-8-4 that could potentially get a chance to stretch their legs working with 614.

Is it not worth it to give this a chance, seeing as it will show what steam can still do? This could potentially give rise to a new generation of steam lovers that keep the fire hot and the steam up, similar to the American Freedom train ultimately giving us a pair of 4-8-4s out in Portland, that would probably still be in a park if not for 4449 being pulled out for the Freedom Train. Perhaps this will show the Class Ones that steam is not a burden, if mechanical failures can be prevented, it will go a long way to showing that steam can reliably run on a 21st Century mainline.

If, (and make no mistake, it is a big if), Ross can raise the funding to pull this off; how many of the naysayers will be the first in line to say "I always knew you could do it, Ross"?

If this succeeds, I'll be trackside, waving as a pair of 4-8-4s run past delighted kids who have never seen a steam locomotive, much less a pair of them in full flight. Is that not a part of why we do what we do to keep these locomotives alive?

As a final conclusion, Ross, I wish you luck on this big dream; clear signals and dry rail.

Probably as many as did for all the other such train journeys that people said, "it'll never happen..."

Gentlemen, Ladies, Take your seats:

The one thing which this conversation is not about and should not be diverted to is whether or not supporting the veteran population is or is not the government's responsibility. It is not. It is the Nation's responsibility. The government is merely the instrumentality of the Nation. The Nation is all of us. Veterans are our sons, our daughters, our parents, our neighbors - us. Veterans left from our communities and, we hope, they will return to our communities. When my father raised his right hand, when I raised my right hand, when my son, my son-in-law and now several of my grandchildren raised their right hands we all entered into a contract with the nation which we were serving that if we did not come back intact we, and our families, would be taken care of. Period.

Having said that:
Veterans are almost by definition outcasts. We practice a trade which is not allowed in civil society and is at the same time necessary to preserve it. Then we have to come home and reintegrate. It is not easy at best. If you are returning to a country which seems not to appreciate your service it can be nearly impossible. To a veteran, particularly one who has been damaged, the acts of kindness or gratitude which are not mandated but are voluntary, the free haircut at Great Clips, the free coffee at Starbucks, the meal at Applebee's on Veterans' Day (to name just a few), or even just the offer of the ride over to the VFW for the monthly fish fry are worth far far more than their cash value. A scarf and a pair of gloves which were a gift from a human being to the guy who is very down on his luck just feel far warmer than the ones purchased with the voucher. Then there are any number of rehabilitative services which go above and beyond those which the VA provides.

Brother Roland has developed a plan to use a train to leverage $100 million in donations into $1 billion in services and and send a clear message that as a society we are welcoming our veterans back and will honour our contract with them. He is one of the few people who can pull this off and in my own small way I will do what I can to support the effort.

That will be all. Keep your seats.

G.M. Edwards
U.S. Cavalry, Retired

Well said. Scouts out!
Former US Army Captain, myself.
I agree that discussions should be limited to the train and what is actually going on.
"Never happen" is a waste of bandwidth. Nothing ever happens... until it happens.

Here's an interesting counter-proposal:

Supposing we do away with the argument that this is all about "getting someone else to pay for a 614 overhaul."

Suppose that, instead of committing to a repair of 614, whatever foundation is set up instead decides to give a bunch of underemployed steamers a chance to run?

UP gets an excuse to get 844, 3985, or 4014 running.
BNSF contracts for the use of AT&SF 2926 and/or 3751 and/or SP 4449 relettered. Or SP&S 700.
NS uses 611 and NKP 765/PM 1225.
SLSF 1522 and Cotton Belt 819 get another chance to run. Milwaukee 261.

You get the idea.

I take it that this is the Plan B/Backup Plan, as to oppose to what happen to the “Greenbrier Presidential Express” project.

Yellow Ribbon Info:

Wikipedia/Yellow Ribbon
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_ribbon

Wikipedia/Support Our Troops
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Support_our_troops

Anyway, here's some ideas towards getting any form sponsorship:

Railroads:
- Amtrak
- BNSF
- Canadian National
- Canadian Pacific....[Depends On Hunter Harrison's Mood]
- CSX...[Good Luck Trying To Deal With Them]
- Genesee & Wyoming
- Iowa Interstate
- Iowa Pacific
- Kansas City Southern
- Norfolk Southern
- RJ Corman
- Union Pacific...[Would They Allow A Non-UP Steamer Operate Over Their System?]

Railroad Publications
- Kalmbach Publishing
- OGR Publishing, Inc.
- White River Productions

Railroad Videos
- C. Vision
- Greg Scholl
- Green Frog
- Goodheart Productions
- Hit Entertainment (Thomas & Friends)
- Hopewell Productions (OGR Publishing)
- Mark I
- Pentrex
- Sunday River Productions
- TM Books & Videos

Model Train Manufactures
- Atlas
- Bachmann/Williams
- Broadway Limited
- Kato
- Lionel/American Flyer
- Mikes Train House
- Sunset Models/3rd Rail
- Walters
- Weaver

Banks (Need Some $$$/Investment/Capital?)
- 5th/3rd
- Bank Of America
- BB&T
- BNY/Mellon
- Citigroup
- Citizens
- Comerica
- Flagstar
- HSBC
- Huntington
- JP Morgan/Chase
- KeyBank
- PNC
- SunTrust
- TCF
- TD Bank
- Wells Fargo

Automotive (Need Some Auto Transport? Many Of Companies Ship Their Product By Rail)
- BMW/Mini
- Fiat Chrysler Automotive (Alfa Romeo, Chrysler, Dodge/RAM, Ferrari, Fiat , Jeep, & Maserati)
- Ford Motor Company (Ford & Lincoln)
- General Motors (Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet, & GMC)
- Honda/Acura
- Hyundai/KIA
- Mazda
- Mercedes-Benz
- Mitsubishi
- Nissan/Infiniti/Datsun
- Subaru
- Tesla
- Toyota/Lexus/Scion
- Volkswagen/Audi

Private Equality:
- Berkshire Hathaway (Warren Buffett)

Military Financial:
- DFAS
- USAA

Military Manufactures:
- Boeing/McDonnell Douglas
- General Dynamics

Veterans Groups
- American Legion
- AMVETS
- Congressional Medal Of Honor Society
- Disable American Veterans
- Iraq & Afghanistan Veterans Of America
- Military Order of the Purple Heart
- National League of POW/MIA Families
- Operation Homefront
- Paralyzed Veterans of America
- United Service Organizations
- Veterans Of Foreign Wars
- Wounded Warrior Project

Corporate Sponsorship Of Vet Groups Links:
http://www.dav.org/help-dav/corporate-partners/
http://iava.org/partners/
http://www.pow-miafamilies.org/partners-and-supporters/
http://www.operationhomefront.net/supporters/platinum
http://www.uso.org/uso-corporate-partners/
http://www.vfw.org/Community/VFW-Affiliates/
http://www.woundedwarriorproject.org/sp ... nsors.aspx

Other Media Ideas:

Pepsi Cola/Southern Pacific 4449
http://www.freedomtrain.org/american-fr ... motion.htm

Mercades-Benz/Norfolk & Western 611
http://files1.coloribus.com/files/adsar ... -49521.jpg

Pepsi Cola/Polar Express
http://www.tcaetrain.org/articles/chron ... AIR009.jpg

Coke Cola/Nickel Plate Road 765
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2mU6jVcv4w

Hope All This Material Helps You Out.

Enjoy! ^_^

I personally would love to see Reading T1 2100 steam again. I know it would cost money but really all it needs is an overhaul like 614 and now 611 had needed and received.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TMOMTtAMBI

OK, seriously, what is different from last time? I'm not being critical, I just want to know.

As for preservation, I would say it is good. It generates interest, it fixes equipment, etc. It may not do those things in amounts one would consider proportional to the size of the project, but it seems to me it has to happen.

I think things have changed too much for this to even get off the ground. First of all there is the assumption posted "Steam will draw people to the train. It will be a happening." Well...I not so sure that is true anymore. When we rode dozens of SR steam specials it was not uncommon to find dozens of non-railfans at remote grade crossings waving and standing on the hoods of their cars. But when I rode a NS steam train last year...I did not see many people trackside at all. I was shocked at how few people turned out for the event. And when I volunteer at a local rail museum I get questions from adults about the steam engine like..."is that a fire truck"? So...I just do not think that we have this nation of people hungry to see the choo choo. Things have changed a lot!

Furthermore...just like the Greenbrier deal...the Class 1's are so hard to deal with. Even NS shortened the steam program last year (what...you didn't notice)? Can you imagine CSX, CN or even CP hosting this deal? And where will you park the train? When the AFT ran there were plenty of places in every city...now? The railroads have pulled up so many miles of track and downtowns where the ATF would have sat 39 years ago are now war zones full of giant homeless communities. You think suburbanites will tromp through the ankle deep garbage to see this deal?

T7

It may be a regional thing. #765's romps on the PRR mainline brought locals out in droves, even for ferry moves. I would expect the same if she returns to the northeast this year.

I have held back from joining this conversation, as I wanted to chomp some popcorn first. Here are three thoughts, FWIW

1. The kind of sponsorship dollars being requested are reasonable if there is C-suite support for veterans charities at the target sponsors

2. It's been done before, and no one has done anything like it since. Not even close. So why not have the originator try again?

3. It's a worthy cause.


Who knows if it will work or not? At least there is an effort.

I am reminded of The Great One's line about missing 100% of the shots he never took.

If you have an idea, take a shot.

That's different than Internet common practice when if someone has an idea, people take a shot at it.

Rob