I have read this conversation with some interest. What I can see here is why so many museums and railway preservation efforts have not lived up to their potential or even failed. If Walt Disney had not been a dreamer and big thinker, would we have a Disney World? Would we have an IRM today if there were no big thinkers and dreamers in their organization? It is the limited small thinkers and nay sayers who have held back on many a preservation effort. I can tell you from many an interaction with Mark Smith before its first publication that L&RP would not have happened if he had not thought big and persevered against the nay sayers. So I applauded Mr. Rowland's big plans and wish him success as we all should rather than try and tear him down and push our own agendas.

Many interesting and constructive postings. Some thoughts......


1. Steams appeal.....Yes, there are certainly far less serious steam fans ( or foamers if you prefer) then there were in the 60's,70's,80's...as time takes its toll and those who grew up with steam ( born not later than 1940?) are fewer and fewer.
Having said that, there's also no question that the steam locomotive has far greater media appeal than the diesel and as one of the 2 key objectives of the YRE is to draw as much attention as possible to its message of thanking those preserving our freedoms on the frontlines then steam justifies its added costs and complexity.
Walt Disney ( a very serious steam lover) said it best..." with a diesel it's a train, with a steam engine it's a happening" and the YRE aims to be a "happening".
There's obviously plenty of mainline capable/qualified steam locomotives available to do the honors of pulling the YRE and that's good news.
Converting the 614 from coal to a more environmentally friendly fuel is only in the exploratory stage and the odds are she'll probably stay a coal burner? This issue requires substantial further thought and consultation both from an engineering and regulatory aspect.

2. Display Sites....It will require a 3,000 ft. siding and 4 acres of adjacent level land to mount the YRE show. The good news is that there are a wealth of sites on short lines and regionals that match those specs. One of the many lessons learned from the 138 display cities of the AFT is we're FAR better off 15/30 miles outside the main downtown city in any market vs. center city. Big fish in a little pond vs. little fish in a big pond. In addition, approx. 21 of the 138 AFT sites still exist and will work for the YRE and there are many military bases with active rail that will be considered.
The AFT carried everything it needed for setting itself up for display aboard the train ( much like RBBB circus still does) . This meant that it took approx. 8 hours after arrival to get things off the train, set up and ready to open.
The plan for the YRE is to build everything for the 4 acre display site in duplicate so that other than the display train itself we can " leapfrog" ahead ( using 18 wheelers) with the many temporary pavilions etc. and have the next city ready to go upon the trains arrival.

3. Purposes.......As Mr. Edwards put it so well, in addition to raising a substantial pot of money to help those who have come home badly injured ( for life) and their families get through life, the equally important mission/goal is to showcase the gratitude of the 99.5% of us who have done no heavy lifting we have towards the .5% who have done it all. You can't put a dollar value on that but to our veterans it will mean a great deal.
The 4D ride through exhibit in the 10 display cars will take you through the American story from 1720-2020 and emphasize saying thanks to those who fought on the frontlines at critical junctures in our history, and to instill in the estimate 10 million school students who will visit the YRE that service to ones nation is a noble calling.

4. Challenges.....As previously stated the project will only happen if we're able to secure corporate co-sponsors to fund the $100M DBOM budget. In 2015 dollars the AFT was a $ 60M project which was 50% paid for by corporate co-sponsorships ( Pepsi,GM,Kraft Foods, Prudential Insurance and Atlantic Richfield Energy) and 50 % from tickets sales to the 7.6 million people who toured its exhibit.
If the YRE is to be a " clone" of the AFT why will it cost nearly twice as much?
The AFT exhibit was nearly all train borne vs. the YRE exhibit which will have a far greater exhibition ( Medal of Honor theatre, Hire our Heroes Pavillion, Sponsors Pavillion etc.,etc.) on the adjacent 4 acre site. Also, everything other than the 20 car YRE display train will be built in duplicate to allow for leap frogging. The AFT was an "open site" experience vs. the YRE sites which will have a fenced perimeter,common entrance and complete security systems for obvious reasons.
The YRE will need to provide substantial public liability insurance to protect not only the railroads but the site property owners etc. and this insurance premium is one of the substantial line items in the operating budget.
By securing sufficient sponsorship support to cover the entire DBOM budget we can then devote 100% of the revenues generated by ticket revenues, donations and fund raisers during the 3 year tour to the Billion for the Brave fund.

Thanks to the success of Rocky 1 ( AFT) I believe we've got a fighting chance to secure the corporate support we need to make this happen....but make no mistake about it...this is a VERY tall mountain and there's no guarantees that we'll succeed.
The one promise I make without reservation is that we'll give it our best shot !!

Thanks, Ross Rowland

Steam by itself has an appeal. To get the mass appeal you need to market it and the experience. Just because trips were sold out doesn't mean that the operation of the steam trip, route, or locomotive itself was marketed beyond the ticket buying passengers.

We don't waste any opportunity to bang the drum about when the 765 comes through town and it shows. How do people see it? Where do they see it? Why does it matter? It's a spectacle, but it takes some maneuvering to make sure the widest audience possible experiences it.

Getting non-railfans to wait by the railroad tracks all day and wait for the headlight on the horizon are gone. You need to make it stupid easy for people to stumble upon these experiences. I imagine a reincarnated AFT/YRE would have a GPS tracker, published route map and schedule, etc.



There may be fewer steam fans, but the public's capacity for being excited, inspired, caught up, and wanting to be part of something like the arrival or passage of a historic train has never been more accessible. Well curated Social media, a GPS tracker, a film series, will all help penetrate the market and appeal beyond steam fans. A marketing plan for steam is just as critical as an operating plan -- but of course I'm deeply bias.

The passage of time and loss of a steam-sensitive generation may seem like hurdles, but we can't underestimate the power of taking a rocket ship down Main Street. The people that care will come out. It's our job to make everyone else care, too.

Some of you are confusing skepticism with criticism. With many other groups or individuals quietly providing results (SRI, TVRM, ORHF, Age of Steam project, etc), some find it hard to take an announcement seriously, when it is just a "new and improved" version of a failed project that never materialized nearly a decade ago. Others have adapted to the changes in the industry, and are getting results. Why not this individual?

Stop TELLING us about these great things. Just DO them. With repeated failed attempts at grand ideas, it's only natural that more and more folks are just going to roll their eyes and say, "Not again," until they see actual results. Skepticism, not criticism.

Like I alluded to in my earlier post. It is like the aging athlete who doesn't know how to retire gracefully. Either step up, and show us ... with results ... that you still "have it," or learn how to bow out gracefully before you make a complete fool of yourself, and forever tarnish the legacy you leave behind.

First of all, thank you for your service to this wonderful nation! Also, a thank you to all who are serving and who have served. Veterans do not receive the appreciation they deserve.

I never intended to incite a political debate with my comment. Like you mentioned, it is ultimately the collective citizenship of America who is responsible for taking care of our veterans' needs. Our government is simply a single tool through which we can help serve our veterans. There are also other tools, such as charities, through which we can serve our veterans. We can also personally serve our veterans. Ultimately, it is the responsibility of ALL Americans to support our veterans regardless of which tool is used to do so. Honestly, I probably could have worded my original statement better. I do believe, however, that a greater percentage of the taxes we pay should be used to take care of the needs of veterans; this was what I meant in saying that the government wasn't "responsible". Regardless, most Americans, including I, need to do more. We are all indebted to the brave men and women who protect our freedoms.

Back on topic: I also support Ross Rowland in his efforts to raise funds to help our veterans. He is using his expertise in steam locomotives as a means to raise money for a wonderful cause. I wish him the best of luck in his efforts.

A "LIKE" Ross's statements and a double "LIKE" to Kelly's. I would be the first to get behind such an endeavor in concept. In todays world of social media and means by which to make it "stupid easy" for the public to become engaged this IS the era where such an operation could be exceptionally successful.
The quantities of people I have seen trackside as we pass by with the 765 is phenomenal and represents what could be done today. I've seen other operations that do nothing (as though one shouldn't promote because drawing attention to ones self is wrong) and you have nothing more than a few railfans. Yet even in those instances the attention draws further attention, people post, some word gets out. When technology is utilized magic happens, when there is a budget for said magic..... sky is the limit.
I will say that I think a T1 is a bit more attractive than the 614...... I just like the look better and at some point, Ross, you must have been rather fond of them yourself. I do get the fact that not having to stop every 120 miles or so (for shooting rods) could be advantageous but water/ service stops are another moment to engage the general public if properly executed.
For such an undertaking I cannot see utilizing anything other than liquid (or liquefied gas) fuel. Either would work as the logistics for utilizing LNG are really not that daunting...... virtually anything is better than coal. The logistics of loading are simply too difficult for a cross country tour, IMHO. Besides, to say to a railroad that we need only fuel up wherever water is available without breaking or switching out the train is invaluable.

Ross, when do we start? ;-)

Ross,

Let's say you don't get the sponsors you wanted for the five years - but you get enough sponsors to cover for two or three years - would you still run an abbreviated version of the train? Maybe the cross-country trip only lasts a year or two, and stops at less places - but still supports the worthy cause. Would you still run the train in this scenario?

This is a HUGE project, absolutely immense in scope. It's also extremely well-intentioned. If Ross is going to spend the kind of time and effort to make this happen, at the very least his 614 should be part of it.

"A Billion for the Brave" -is brilliant.

Best of luck!
Stephen

February 18, 1976 was my first exposure to big steam...T&P 610 on the American Freedom Train. I was born in 1963, so I have no memory of US in service steam. The AFT changed all that, and I say she was the direct catalyst for most of the restorations which took place in the next 15 years. To be honest, I would love to take part in something like this, not only to honor my relatives who have served, but those disabled veterans who sorely need the help right now. This might be the door cracking open to further exposures everywhere if done right..who knows? We might have excursions all over the place the way they do in England. No harm in putting the throttle on the roof and stretching out the slack on the idea...

Looking forward to seeing a long inactive 4-8-4 bring the site of steam to a new generation, operating under dedicated corporate patronage.

6-1-1.

Mmmm, I would respectfully disagree that Ross is like an aging athlete. Athlete's bodies have limits and suffer wear and tear from the abuse of extreme efforts, plus just getting old. What Ross does involves the intellect, and unless you are talking about someone coming down with dementia, that actually improves with age.

Having said that, I see the real obstacle as being the changes in the world. Not so much the changes in the public, though we do have to deal with two generations now removed from the classic railroad era and the competition from computer games and texting and so on, but the changes in railroad management who don't want to run passenger trains or steam or both for various reasons, some real, some specious.

I can understand traffic and manpower issues; everyone seems to have what I call Wal-Mart disease (doing too much with too little for too long--like 30 cash registers at Wal-Mart, with three open and 50 people in line). But that doesn't explain weird stuff like the CSX absolutely nothing position, it doesn't explain how railroads require some huge liability coverage to operate a passenger train but they will accept a train of what has turned out to be highly volatile crude oil that does have a history of causing problems in a derailment (the railroad in Canada that suffered a catastrophic derailment and went into bankruptcy over it had only $25 million in coverage). Sounds like being afraid of the wrong stuff, like being hit by lightning, if you ask me.

Unfortunately, that's part of what Ross will have to deal with, and that can be the worst thing to deal with of all--and it's not something you can blame on Ross!

I semi-disagree with this. If the event can happen with 614 it should. If the event can happen without 614 it should. I don't feel that the likelihood of this event should hinge on 614.

I do wonder, though, if there's a possibility that a travelling train exhibit might not have the impact it did back in 1969 and 1975 when Ross's other diaplay trains got to the rails.
The world has changed a lot since then. A 'big travelling show' doesn't bring people in like it used to. People don't go to circuses like they did, and when was the last time anyone heard of a world's fair taking place anywhere?
Heck, I know people who don't ackowledge anything that isn't social-media based.
Not saying there's no cause for this or that nobody will show, but would it carry the same impact on society that the AFT did in 75 and 76?
Trains fans? We'll be standing trackside even if the train is loaded with dog poop. But the public?
Just wondering...

I really do not understand what all of the hubbub is over this. Mr. Rowland was very honest when he admitted that there is a lot of work to do and that it is a long shot.

At the end of the day, whether you or I think it is a good idea is immaterial. Whether this happens or not depends on whether sponsors can be found, period. Let Mr. Rowland make his pitch, present his business plan, and let us see if the free market works. Some sponsors may love it, others may not. In the end, whether it happens or not depends on if enough sponsors "Like" it by paying up.

I've been critical of Mr. Rowland in the past, but you can't criticize his honesty as quoted in the original article. Let's see if it works. Until then, I'm sure there's plenty for us to do at our respective organizations.

David M. Wilkins
Strange Bedfellows, UT

Yes, some valid points. However, the more often these huge announcements are made, and continue to fall flat on their face, the higher the numbers of folks who will start to perceive these endeavors as not being about the supposed cause. Rather, they will start to sniff of a convenient hot-button issue that was latched on to, as a last-ditch attempt at reclaiming lost glory. Like the athlete, at some point you either have to deliver the goods, or realize the dream is over and fade gracefully into the limelight. While he may not have the same physical limitations of an athlete, the concept is the same. Either step up and show us you can do it, or stop wasting time getting people's hopes up over things you can't make good on.

Do I want Ross to succeed? Yes ... I think it would be great for veterans, as well as the preservation field. Considering his recent lack of success (21stCL, YRE 1, GBE), however, it might be in his best interest to keep these things under his hat until the checks have cleared the bank, and work actually begins. If he keeps announcing things that never come to pass, at some point even his most ardent supporters will start to wonder if the "NNN's" (as he calls people who question his ideas) weren't really "negative nabobs" ... but were really right all along. If the current pattern of announce/fail/repeat continues, eventually everyone in the room will realize that the Emperor really has no clothes.

Don't tell everyone about it. Just go out and do it. His past accomplishments give him the "street cred" to sell it to Corporate America, without having to whip the rail enthusiast "base" up into a frenzy every couple of years.