USATC "S160" Consolidations

dinwitty · **Joined:** Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:18 pm **Posts:** 2226

just found the tractive effort of the B&OCT 2-6-0 37485 lbs

Probably built for lighter rail (the 2-8-0) as the 2-6-0 cranked transfer trains around, thats pretty good TE for a small engine, I'm sure it could shove a full train at slow switching speeds.

QJdriver · **Posted:** Wed May 27, 2015 12:13 pm

I've tried asking this on the other two S-160 type threads, with no replies, maybe I'm the only person who cares about this, but here goes:

WHO DID ALL THE CLEANUP ON 611 AFTER SHE LEFT TEXAS ??? If possible, PLEASE NAME THE NAMES. I'd also like to know if they were paid, got a reduced sentence, or were volunteers... what equipment and methods were used, how many men (or women), and how many employee (or volunteer or prisioner) hours did it take ???

Yea, it's a stupid question. But I bet there would be considerably less interest in 611 right now if all that incredibly nasty work hadn't been done. Nobody cared about her when TSRR had her.

David Notarius · **Posted:** Thu May 28, 2015 4:45 am

Hi Guys, Here is some of the better S160 pages out on the McNet

http://www.lner.info/locos/O/s160.shtml

http://www.railalbum.co.uk/steam-locomo ... s160-1.htm

http://militaryrailwayservice.blogspot. ... otive.html

http://www.docbrown.info/docspics/Archi ... coS160.htm

http://alaskarails.org/historical/door- ... Europe.pdf

I also believe there are at least 3 S160's still in China, one being restored for service, one in a museum, and another still floating around but not 100% confirmed, and at least 2 in Italy. Have fun everyone - David

dinwitty · **Joined:** Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:18 pm **Posts:** 2226

QJdriver wrote:

I've tried asking this on the other two S-160 type threads, with no replies, maybe I'm the only person who cares about this, but here goes:

WHO DID ALL THE CLEANUP ON 611 AFTER SHE LEFT TEXAS ??? If possible, PLEASE NAME THE NAMES. I'd also like to know if they were paid, got a reduced sentence, or were volunteers... what equipment and methods were used, how many men (or women), and how many employee (or volunteer or prisioner) hours did it take ???

Yea, it's a stupid question. But I bet there would be considerably less interest in 611 right now if all that incredibly nasty work hadn't been done. Nobody cared about her when TSRR had her.

thats a curious question whats the circumstances, who had it, who got it, who took care of it etc etc, I don't know but some research is in order, google is your friend. I find a few things that way, but credit to those who helped, but if its more fingerpointeing well...

I'll poke the net sometime...

QJdriver · **Posted:** Thu May 28, 2015 12:18 pm

I spent two weeks under that engine, and I think these guys deserve a GOLD MEDAL for their work, and some RECOGNITION. If anything I posted on this subject sounds like "fingerpointing" it is UNINTENTIONAL.

Just to be perfectly clear, I AM NOT TRYING TO START AN ARGUMENT. I would like to know who did all that work. I would like to know the gresome details of the job. That's all I'm after. Thanks in advance for any information anybody would be kind enough to provide.

PaulWWoodring · **Posted:** Thu May 28, 2015 1:43 pm

When I was in China in July of 1987, we came across two Chinese class KD-7's that looked like GI Joe Consol. copies built for the Nationalist Chinese. They were in Shanghai, and both had recently been in service. One was definitely a Baldwin, c/n 73207, road number 548; the other a Lima, c/n 9243, Jan. 1947, road number 648. The Lima looked to have been recently retired, the Baldwin was still under steam. Could either of these locomotives be among those still in existence? It was a very rainy day, but I do have some B&W images of them. The date I saw them was July 15, 1987.

A couple of days before, we toured the Fushun open pit coal mine and saw two other U. S. built KD-6's. Again one probably a Baldwin, the other a probable Lima. They were road numbers 463 and 481, both were currently in use at the mine at that time.

BDrotarIII · **Posted:** Fri May 29, 2015 4:28 am

David Notarius wrote:

Hi Guys, Here is some of the better S160 pages out on the McNet

http://www.lner.info/locos/O/s160.shtml

http://www.railalbum.co.uk/steam-locomo ... s160-1.htm

http://militaryrailwayservice.blogspot. ... otive.html

http://www.docbrown.info/docspics/Archi ... coS160.htm

http://alaskarails.org/historical/door- ... Europe.pdf

I also believe there are at least 3 S160's still in China, one being restored for service, one in a museum, and another still floating around but not 100% confirmed, and at least 2 in Italy. Have fun everyone - David

There are also 3 S160's left in Poland, they are:

1. USATC 5164, now Tr201-51. Original boiler was Lima 8823, current boiler is ALCO 70301. Located at Jaworzyna Śląska Technical Museum, Jaworzyna Śląska, Poland.

2. USATC 2438, now Tr203-296. Original boiler was ALCO 70787, current boiler is ALCO 71092. Located at Jaworzyna Śląska Technical Museum, Jaworzyna Śląska, Poland.

3. USATC 5804, now Tr203-451. Original boiler was Lima 8739, current boiler is Baldwin 69545. Located at National Railroad Museum in Warsaw, Poland.

I have no idea what the original USATC numbers for the replacement boilers are, Polish locomotives are identified by the serial numbers on the frame, and boiler swaps were very common until the end of steam.

J.David · **Posted:** Fri May 29, 2015 12:45 pm

Greetings:
The China Railway class KD-7 is a UNRRA (United Nations Relief and Rehabilitation Administration) design: larger drivers, cylinders, boiler, longer wheel base, etc. than the S-160, China Railway class KD-6.
The UNRRA locomotives were supplied to China, Belgium and Mexico after WWII. They were built by ALCO, Baldwin, Lima and Montreal. Examples survive in each of these countries.
J.David

QJdriver · **Posted:** Fri May 29, 2015 1:58 pm

Mr Dinwitty, if you're still reading this thread, please excuse me if my reply to your post was a mite terse. From my entry in this thread, it isn't obvious that I was one of the people at Texas State RR who didn't care about 611. Not only that, but I said she ought to be put out of her misery, and that the only way she'd ever run again would be if you jacked up the whistle and built another engine underneath.

I STAND CORRECTED. Several RyPNers have diplomaticly pointed out gaps in my understanding as part of at least three other threads, and by PM. Thanks to all who did.

The real reason I want to know who cleaned up 611 is so I can hopefully shake their hand someday, and buy them a beer.

PaulWWoodring · **Posted:** Fri May 29, 2015 2:14 pm

J.David wrote:

Greetings:
The China Railway class KD-7 is a UNRRA (United Nations Relief and Rehabilitation Administration) design: larger drivers, cylinders, boiler, longer wheel base, etc. than the S-160, China Railway class KD-6.
The UNRRA locomotives were supplied to China, Belgium and Mexico after WWII. They were built by ALCO, Baldwin, Lima and Montreal. Examples survive in each of these countries.
J.David

Mr. Conrad, thank you for the clarification. So, if I understand correctly, the KD-6's were the Chinese equivalent of the European S-160's? Anyone know if any of the KD-6's survived?

marshall5 · **Joined:** Wed Feb 05, 2014 6:30 am **Posts:** 56

PaulWWoodring wrote:

J.David wrote:

Greetings:
The China Railway class KD-7 is a UNRRA (United Nations Relief and Rehabilitation Administration) design: larger drivers, cylinders, boiler, longer wheel base, etc. than the S-160, China Railway class KD-6.
The UNRRA locomotives were supplied to China, Belgium and Mexico after WWII. They were built by ALCO, Baldwin, Lima and Montreal. Examples survive in each of these countries.
J.David

Mr. Conrad, thank you for the clarification. So, if I understand correctly, the KD-6's were the Chinese equivalent of the European S-160's? Anyone know if any of the KD-6's survived?

Hi Paul,
I was fortunate enough to see both KD6's and KD7's in China in December 1984. The KD7 766 & 780 were OOU at Dragon Hill Pond nr. Jilin but KD6 476 (Alco 70299/42) and KD6 478 (Lima 8207/43) were at work at Fushun coal mine. KD6 463 (USATC 5197) was also there and was later exported to the U.K. by a buddy of mine.
Today it is believed that KD6 487 still survives on the Teifa coal mine system. AFAIK the KD6's were identical to the European S160's when supplied to China but underwent many changes over the years including being converted to left hand drive, power reversers, larger cabs and taller chimneys.
Hope this helps.
Ray.

dinwitty · **Joined:** Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:18 pm **Posts:** 2226

QJdriver wrote:

Mr Dinwitty, if you're still reading this thread, please excuse me if my reply to your post was a mite terse. From my entry in this thread, it isn't obvious that I was one of the people at Texas State RR who didn't care about 611. Not only that, but I said she ought to be put out of her misery, and that the only way she'd ever run again would be if you jacked up the whistle and built another engine underneath.

I STAND CORRECTED. Several RyPNers have diplomaticly pointed out gaps in my understanding as part of at least three other threads, and by PM. Thanks to all who did.

The real reason I want to know who cleaned up 611 is so I can hopefully shake their hand someday, and buy them a beer.

I'm just being careful so we don't get misconstrued. 8-D

I see what yer getting at.

steam locomotive.com has this

611 (2628) S-160 2-8-0 4'-8½" USATC Bill Miller Equipment Sales, Eckhart Mines, MD cosmetic restoration Baldwin #69856, 1943 Poppet valve gear, from TVRM, Chatanooga

having poppet valve gear is pretty unique.

and just ran into this

apparently the T1 trust working on the new PRR 4-4-4-4 T1 project will have full access to the 611 to study it.

Quote:

The T1 Trust Granted Unfettered Access To USATC #611

On December 23, 2014, engineering staff from The T1 Trust met with Denny Fisher of Bill Miller Equipment Sales in Eckhart Mines, Maryland. The purpose of this visit was to introduce their personnel to the 5550 project and to conduct a preliminary examination of the former US Army Transportation Corps (USATC) Locomotive #611, currently stored onsite.

611 is a USATC S160 class consolidation (2-8-0). She was built by the Baldwin Locomotive Works of Philadelphia, PA in 1943, and was originally numbered 2628. This class of locomotives was designed for use by the US Army, to provide a fleet of motive power for transporting military supplies abroad, and restoring railroad service in war torn countries during and after the war. A total of 2,120 S160's were built, and served in Africa, Asia, South America, and throughout Europe.

The 611 is of interest to the T1 trust because of what happened during her service after WWII. She was part of the motive power roster at Fort Eustis, Virginia. From 1946 until 2010, Fort Eustis was the home to the Army's Transportation School, where soldiers were trained in rail, marine, amphibious operations and other modes of transportation. In the early 1950's, 611 was modified to replace her original Walschaerts' valve gear and piston valves with an experimental derivative of the Franklin Type B1 rotary Cam Poppet valve gear. Despite being scavenged for parts to keep other S160's running at Fort Eustis, the valve gear is complete, and 611 is now the only remaining locomotive in the world fitted with any version of Franklin Rotary Cam gear.

Bill Miller Equipment Sales has graciously offered the T1 Trust unrestricted access to the 611, for the purpose of reverse-engineering the valve gear. In the coming months and years, we will be sending members of the engineering committee to Maryland, for the purpose of dismantling and blueprinting all of the surviving valve gear components. Our course of investigation will include:

Determine direction of rotation of driveshafts relative to spiral gearboxes.
Confirm direction of rotation for camshafts.
Dismantle and blueprint one or both spiral gearboxes.
Dismantle and blueprint one or both driveshaft intermediate support assemblies.
Dismantle and blueprint driveshaft joints and determine tube section dimensions.
Remove cambox assembly to examine mounting features and wedge details.
Remove cambox top cover / reverser assemblies to examine inside of cambox, determine current condition and setting of cams.

Dismantle and blueprint cambox assembly to determine component part details and cam profile. Measurements will be taken using a combination of manual inspection tools, as well as 3D scanning equipment if available. We will attempt to determine material alloys used if non-destructive methods can be utilized. Finally, 3D solid models of all existing components will be created in CAD, and serve as the basis for creating a new set of B2 camboxes. We anticipate this effort will take place over the next several years.

In addition to serving our interests, the information we collect may someday be used to help restore the 611 to operational condition. To that end, a full duplicate set of prints and CAD files of the B1 parts will be provided to Bill Miller Equipment Sales for reference. The T1 trust would like to extend their thanks to Bill Miller, Denny Fisher, and all of the staff at Bill Miller Equipment Sales for their support of the 5550 project.

so some very interesting news there.

pic of the engine on the T1 site, Miller apparently doing a cosmetic restoration but the T1 folks may look at a full restoration.

J.David · **Posted:** Fri May 29, 2015 10:57 pm

Greetings:
A bit more information in re-S160 locomotives in China: from "United States Army Transportation Corps Locomotives" by R. Tourret.
Page 59: "The process of breaking up the dumps began about February 1946, both the 2-8-0s and 0-6-0STs having letters "UNRRA" painted on tenders and tank sides respectively and the "USA/TC" obliterated".
Page 61: "At least twenty-five engines went to China: 1680, 1724/8/95, 1804, 2306/23/76/8, 2597, 2604/25/35 and 5188-99".
The 2-8-0s were eventually (read: after Liberation) designated class KD-6 with numbers from <463 to 478>.
The 0-6-0STs were eventually designated class XK-2.
I would note that I saw one of the 0-6-0STs in the dead line at Anshan Steel Works in 1994.
J.David

Les Beckman · **Joined:** Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:25 pm **Posts:** 6471

J.David wrote:

Greetings:
A bit more information in re-S160 locomotives in China

Page 61: "At least twenty-five engines went to China: 1680, 1724/8/95, 1804, 2306/23/76/8, 2597, 2604/25/35 and 5188-99".
The 2-8-0s were eventually (read: after Liberation) designated class KD-6 with numbers from <463 to 478>.

J.David

J. David -

Not to nitpick but, numbers 463 to 478 total 16 locomotives, not 25. Perhaps some retired or.......?

Les

marshall5 · **Joined:** Wed Feb 05, 2014 6:30 am **Posts:** 56

Les Beckman wrote:

J.David wrote:

Greetings:
A bit more information in re-S160 locomotives in China

Page 61: "At least twenty-five engines went to China: 1680, 1724/8/95, 1804, 2306/23/76/8, 2597, 2604/25/35 and 5188-99".
The 2-8-0s were eventually (read: after Liberation) designated class KD-6 with numbers from <463 to 478>.

J.David

J. David -

Not to nitpick but, numbers 463 to 478 total 16 locomotives, not 25. Perhaps some retired or.......?

Les

The symbols < & > suggest that there were numbers lower and higher than those quoted but AFAIK the only ones actually observed by western enthusiasts were between 463 and 478. By the time the first railfan groups got to China many would have already been scrapped as you say.
Cheers,
Ray.

USATC "S160" Consolidations

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