The Napa Valley event did not have to become a race question. I see this:

You operate a scenic train focused on wine.

You accept reservations for groups.

You then evict a customer group because they are having too much fun, and laughing too loud.

They are not fighting. They are not intoxicated beyond normal standards for the train.

If this was a TGIF restaurant, would they have been asked to leave? Would they have been asked to change their behavior? How about Hooters? How about Applebees?

The train staff responded to complaints from other passengers. Why where those passengers desires necessarily more important than the evicted passengers? If I went to Hooters and complained about the noise from the neighboring table, should I expect that that table would be evicted?

Relevance to preservation: you have to consider both sides of the customer service commitment when responding to customer complaints.

Can I be one of those friends ???

Not really related, but entertaining anyway. . .

Some years back, there was an incident on an Amtrak train--specificially, No. 29, the westbound Capitol Limited out of Washington, DC. Seems a male passenger got on the train with a bottle of whisky, and he was full up, too.

This gentlemen got drunker and drunker, and started annoying other passengers in the dining car, and the peak came when he propositioned a 14-year-old girl in front of her parents! Well, this was too much, and the female conductor radioed ahead to have policemen meet the train at Martinsburg, W.Va.

I was at the station in Martinsburg, just "railfanning," watching trains, when the Capitol pulled in, but didn't leave. In a little while a police car showed up with two men, and then a third man showed up on a bicycle. The three accompanied the conductor and a porter onto the train, and after awhile they came out with this guy who looked to be in his 50s--what I would describe as "old enough to know better." He was carrying a briefcase.

The conductor, the porter, the passenger, and the three policemen walked past the Superliners to the baggage car. The porter swung up along the side of the car, opened one of the sliding doors, and went in. In a short while, he came back out with a suitcase. The crowd then walked back to the open car door. The conductor and the porter got on the train, the conductor gave the engine crew a highball, and the train pulled out, now a bit late after all of this.

This left the policemen on the platform with the guy, his suitcase, and his briefcase. One of the policemen asked the former passenger to open the briefcase. Inside the briefcase was a half-empty bottle of Royal Crown whisky.

The policeman asked for the bottle. He took the bottle, unscrewed the cap, and poured the remainder of the whisky on the ballast. Then he put the cap back on the bottle, handed the empty bottle back to the guy, and told him littering was against the law in Martinsburg.

Now, if you've ever been to Martinsburg, W.Va., you know the station has a couple of porches on it, being a former hotel that was converted to a station after Stonewall Jackson burned the original station and roundhouse in 1861. At this time the porch still had a bench on it, and three old guys were watching all this; think of the two fellows in the theater box in the old "Muppet Show" when that was on the air, and give them a third member. They saw the officer pour the whisky out, and one of them called, "Hey, that's Royal Crown! That's good stuff! You should have saved some for us!"

After this, the policemen left. This left the guy and me in front of a telephone booth that used to be there.

This guy was rather worried about being stranded in Martinsburg. He wanted to know if there was any bus service to Ohio.

Me: "We used to have Greyhound here, but it quit years ago. Now you have to go to Hagerstown, Md. to get the bus."

He: "How far away is Hagerstown?"

Me: "About 25 miles."

He: "Is there another bus to get to Hagerstown?"

Me: "No, that's the bus that was taken off."

He: "Is there cab service here?"

Me: "Yes, two companies. One is just up the street."

He looks in the phone booth and looks up the number of one cab company. He tries calling it on his cell phone, but for some reason it doesn't work here. He tries using the pay phone, but there's no answer. He tries the second cab company, but there's no answer there either.

He: "Why don't they answer?"

Me: "They are both small companies. Very likely the only people on duty are driving the cabs, or maybe a cab."

He tries to call his girlfriend on the cell phone. It still doesn't work. He's a bit upset at this. She's supposed to meet him at a station in Ohio. The train is going to be there probably around 2:00 or 3:00 in the morning, and she'll be there, but he won't be because he got put off the train in Martinsburg.

He tries to call the cab company, he gets no answer. He tries to call his girlfriend; the cell phone doesn't work.

It's getting late by this time, and my wife will start wondering where I am, so I have to leave. The last I saw of him, he was walking up the street to the cab company that was there.

I do wonder how he explained how he wasn't on the train to his girlfriend in Ohio.

I've been a professional beer writer for over a decade now.

There is a vast amount of difference between the beer bar in the tourist part of town where folks may be watching the football (American OR British!) game, the taproom at the microbrewery, and the Belgian-styled bistro uptown with fine dining and tablecloths. You can find loners who want to be left alone, exuberant extroverts, and herd mentality at any of them.

But at either place, if a boisterous party of twelve is told to chill out and quiet down a bit and they respond with "Says who??" or the equivalent, they're going to get asked to leave, no matter which place they're at, or what gender/age/race/etc. they may be.

Is that what happened on the Napa Valley Wine Train in this case? Apparently now we'll never know.

Anyone else find it ironic that the railroad's ultimate solution is to put them in a separate car?

I find it very ironic indeed....shades of Jim Crow, even though I personally think they did not mean it in that manner. I will say this about the situation involving the Wine Train. I've had to handle drunken groups, rowdy groups, some of those African American. I think it was more of a matter of cultural unfamiliarity which morphed into this ugly situation. What I mean by that, is I'm willing to bet wine country has few African Americans, and even fewer who ride. Most of (if not all) the OBS were white with limited exposure to African Americans. With that in mind, plus them being in a car with, shall we say, others with even less exposure to African Americans, set the stage for what occurred. A recent Gallup poll related that 75 percent of White Americans have no African American friends. Tying all that together set the stage for what we saw at Napa Valley.

Take a look around at your museum or tourist railroad. Do you market to African Americans? Do you have any African American employees or volunteers? If not, why not? Has recruiting minorities ever been discussed?

Txhighballer brings up an important point here that goes to larger questions of the value of historic preservation and what museums are about.

I was reading an article a few months ago (don't ask me where -- I don't remember) about the different ways that white and black Americans experience museums. Many white Americans (and I think this is especially true of railfans) will go to a museum and think, "Wow, this is so great! I really wish I could go back in time to the 1950s" [or 1920s, or 1890s, etc. -- pick your era]. History looks good to them, and they feel a mixture of nostalgia and reverence for it. Many black Americans visiting the same museum will think, "I'm glad I'm not living in the 1950s." History looks bad to them, as something to be overcome. There isn't the same feeling of nostalgia or reverence there.

In addition to the class issue mentioned above (upper-middle class white expectations about fine food and wine as opposed to "a bar on wheels"), I wonder if there was also a nostalgia gap at work in this incident.

How this issue should be addressed I don't know, but it's certainly something that we as historic preservationists need to consider as part of the visitor experience.

-Philip Marshall

Hello, IronTie and all.

Actually, I don't find it ironic AT ALL. This party, based on the descriptions in this post, should have been booked into a separate car in the first place, to the extent that room was available to do so. The biggest "issue" with this group, was that there were only 11 of them. That is too small for a whole car, but too big to ignore.

As a public accommodation, the operators of the train need to balance the enjoyment of ALL of their passengers, as well as their safety. Is Napa Valley [insert pejorative here]? No. Did they make a series of mistakes that added up to "as bad as it gets without injury?" Yes, they did.

I have not worked "Group Reservations," though I am sympathetic for the challenges they face. Group Reservations can make or break you, particularly if they are either unable or unwilling to identify groups to the passenger service and operations crews who may need special accommodations.

So, what is the "lesson" for the rest of us? BE PROFESSIONAL. If you are working advance booking, make sure the conductor(s) and COBS KNOW about the "medium" groups as well as the large ones. Also, make sure that your "group" knows in advance what otherwise accepted conduct elsewhere might not be acceptable on YOUR train. Just because "everybody" rides with you DOESN'T mean that this group has. As on-board service personnel, ALWAYS treat others AT LEAST as nicely as you wish to be treated yourself, ESPECIALLY when your passenger does not return the favor. And sometimes, you may need to move the "OFFENDED," as well as or rather than the offender. Finally, keep an eye to the future, as well as the present. If your boss is going to have to apologize for your actions next week, don't do it this week.

Of course, "sometimes, the dragon wins." As far as I can tell, Napa Valley doesn't willingly offer the "perp-walk and bus ride" special, nor were the "Sistahs on the Reading Edge" looking for anything more than a fun day in Northern California. Unfortunately for all involved, they found it.

Thanks.

Brian J. Patterson.

Phillip has a point. Not only do African Americans do not look fondly towards the past, because they do not see themselves in it. According to most media, African Americans did not exist, except being depicted as slaves. More than half the cowboys in the Old West were African American, but what is usually depicted?

On the railroad preservation side, how many African Americans have you seen in the cab of a steam locomotive on film? For bonus points name the films.

We as railroad historians and preservationists have to do a better job of telling the stories of minorities in the growth and maturing of the railroad industry. It needs to be shown that they are a part of the story as well, both the good and the bad.

Hello, all.

I deliberately "ignored" race entirely in my previous post in this topic, and I will only mention it in this one. Many of you have brought up points on racial sensitivity for heritage railways and railway museums--needful and points that we would be ill-advised to ignore in our own operations.

However, Napa Valley Wine Train is a heritage railway only in the loosest and vaguest sense of the word. They have ONE Super-Dome that could not easily be replaced with new construction. Not counting that ONE car, they could easily have Bombardier build them a complete set of Viewliner II cars with open-platform observation cars, Edwardian Kitche seating and wood paneling, powered by Siemens Locomotives, and do just fine. In fact, for THEIR purpose, they might even be well-advised to do so. Even their line is historical only because it was built as a "party-line" one hundred years ago.

What Napa Valley Wine Train IS, is a linear wine bar and gourmet restaurant that moves. They themselves state on the homepage of their website: "The Napa Valley Wine Train is one of the most distinctive Napa restaurants, ... that echoes the glory days of train travel..." Please don't misunderstand. We in the railway preservation movement have NO excuse to make any of our visitors, donors, or volunteers feel unwelcome because of their race, or any other "status," whatever that "status" may be. What I AM saying is that Napa Valley Wine Train has LESS THAN NO EXCUSE. They are in the HOSPITALITY business exclusively. They are SUPPOSED to be hospitable.

I myself do not believe that they were deliberately or maliciously [insert pejorative here.] However, they DID make a number of mistakes that added up to major problems for them--bad press that will last for weeks, and bad-will that will last for months if not years. There was no "nostalgia gap" here. There was was a courtesy gap on the part of both the Wine Train and the "Sistahs." There was a marketing gap--most $124 per plate plus restaurants tend to be stuffy by their very nature, thus less receptive to people who don't want to act like they are in a library. There was a "booking" gap--you don't book a party of eleven celebrating ANYTHING (including life itself) next to people who aren't so lively. Though I will admit with a restaurant that is 8 feet wide and 800 feet long setting up a private room for only eleven can be tricky. But there is no nostalgia gap. There is more nostalgia at Disneyland or Knott's Berry Farm than on the Napa Valley Wine Train, though all three are wonderful places to visit--unless the proprietors "perp-walk" you out the front door for breaching decorum.

Thanks.

Brian J. Patterson.

I am proud to report that I saw men, women, and children of all races disembarking from the 11 A.M. train to Marine On St. Croix, Minnesota, after it returned to Osceola, Wisconsin, when I was visiting Osceola on August 8th, 2015. Nobody I saw seemed to be thinking "Trains of the 1950s? I hate the 1950s!" The train was just that: a train.

We need to not over-analyze things here re: people who visit museums, especially since the Napa Valley and Osceola operations are quite different operations, with one being a dinner train and the other a genuine heritage railway.

The Napa Valley Wine train is in no way shape or form a party train. The train provides gourmet food and local wines at a gourmet price point. There is a certain decorum which is expected at a "fine" restaurant and in many cases the clientele demands that that decorum be observed.

If these people were loud and boisterous and disturbing other clients perhaps they felt that their experience was being diminished by the actions of the rowdy table. The appropriate action would be to ask them to quiet down and if they don't remove them from the train. No different than someone holding a conversation during a movie or concert. You are paying a hefty sum for the experience and don't want anyone ruining it for you.

Have you ever seen the Blues Brothers where Jake and Elwood enter the restaurant where Mr. Wonderful is the maitre'd ?

Six Axle Alco

Whatever you do Sandy, don't get put off in Trenton, NJ. I remember about 25 years ago on Amtrak, having a conversation with my conductor about unruly passengers (I don't remember if it was because we had to put one off that trip or not), and he said he liked to put the more obnoxious ones off in Trenton with the station master calling the local PD, because the Trenton cops got their jollies beating up bad passengers on their way to jail.

And, oh by the way, it's Crown Royal, not Royal Crown - that's a cola.

It sounds like these women had zero respect for anyone around them. No one wants the firestorm that comes with a situation like this, but if the needs of 11 are displacing the needs of 39 other paying customers, especially if those 11 become, as staff are saying, unruly and violent, you need to protect the other passengers and deal with the fallout. You can talk about culture all you want, it's not a license to act any way you please.

In this day and age, it IS--IF you have the "politically correct" status of "victim" simply by being some minority or aggrieved group afforded "protected" status by the "social justice warriors."

We may not like that, but barring a major cultural shift in both the "mainstream media" and certain geographical areas such as the so-called "Left Coasts" (of which Napa Valley is deeply within), it's the reality we're being dealt.

So you got this awful hand you've been dealt. What do you do? THAT'S the crux of this thread, not whether or how you can get a new hand dealt, because at least for now that ain't happening.