Thank you, Les. Yes, I was looking for the most modern, or modernized, 4-4-0's. The traditional "wild west" wood burners would be excluded from the study. That being said, I think we came up with a short list of very modernized Americans.

A quick Google search turned up this picture of a D16 with rather large drivers. http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com/images/prr8167.jpg

290 has two, and they're the larger version.

Does anybody want to build a new 4-4-0 with the modern conveniences? I think it would be interesting to see how far we could push the envelope, and create a useful sized locomotive that would be easily portable.

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I have a better idea. ;-)

The class was conceived as two versions, which became D16 (68in drivers, produced in 1896) and D16a (80in drivers produced between 1895-1898).

D16b (68in drivers produced between 1900–1908) originated as a slightly modified version of the D16, and D16c (80in drivers, produced in 1900), as well as D16d (80in drivers, prodcuded between 1900–1910). The idea at the time was to have 80in drivers for level terrain and 68in drivers for more rugged terrain.

Over time as newer power eclipsed them, the subclasses were rebuilt with 68in drivers and reclassified as D16 or D16b (those modified with superheaters and piston valves being D16s or D16sb).

Given 1223's build date (1905), it would have been built as either D16b (68in)or D16d (80in). Its possible that it was built as D16b to begin with, but later service saw the class shoehorned into branchline freight work where lighter axle loads were required. All I know is that of the last three in service, 1223 was the last with its chicken coup passenger pilot, with 1035 and 5079 both having their pilots reduced to simple beams. Interestingly, the PRR seems to have initially intended to preserve both 1035 and 1223, but then decided they only needed to save one D16 and 1035 drew the short straw.

Personally, I can't prove 1223 was one of those rebuilt from 80in drivers though, as I can't find any extant photos of it with them, but it remains possible and probable.

I don't suppose you know of any existing drawings for the burner/firepan arrangements, front ends, ect. for these as upgraded?

I was thinking about that when I wrote that post..... would you guys be up to alteration?

Frisco1522 -

The late Lloyd E. Stagner in his book "Steam Locomotive of the Frisco Lines" states that two of the 4-4-0's were rebuilt in 1928 as you described. There is a locomotive diagram reproduced in that book that shows two road numbers (183 and 187) as being rebuilt. Perhaps Stagner got it wrong and there were actually six in the program. Whether there were two or six, it brings up a question. The 1899-1902 built Frisco Americans got feedwater heaters, but no mention of new boilers. The seven 1890's built Katy 4-4-0's got new boilers when they were rebuilt between 1923 and 1925 but apparently no feedwater heaters. So, since we are talking here about MODERN 4-4-0's, which would have made the locomotive more modern of those two alternatives; a new boiler or a feedwater heater?

Les

A new boiler, if built to the original 1899 design, isn't really a modernization, just normal periodic maintenance. Adding a feedwater heater is an upgrade that is supposed to increase efficiency (which I'm sure it did), and certainly qualifies as a modernization.

I think that given said locomotive already has piston valves, most other alterations would be minimally invasive to the artifact and wouldn't change its appearance or interpretation to a great degree. The real issue would be finding the money for the overall restoration.

Andrew -

Assuming we are talking about RR&G #104 here, built by BLW in 1919?


Les

Depends on how far you want to go Andrew, but I was working on such a plan for Cliffside 110 which wasn't adopted because of fiscal constraints and the failure of the BOD to engage in grant application work. That's gradually changing..... but too late.

There are compromises made to good front end design that can be fit in, better piston valve and piston ring designs that are invisible, and a lot that can be done to the boiler and combustion system to gain in efficiency, as well as feedwater heaters, roller bearings and the like.

She's a beauty, and it would be a shame to detract from her classical lines.

The 183 and 187 were the two that got the Coffin FWH, They rebuilt six in total 182-187. These were all rebuilt in '28 or so. they had major improvements made and were among the last steam on the Frisco. Wish there were still 4 or so of them around.

Frisco1522 -

The late Lloyd E. Stagner in his book "Steam Locomotive of the Frisco Lines" states that two of the 4-4-0's were rebuilt in 1928 as you described. There is a locomotive diagram reproduced in that book that shows two road numbers (183 and 187) as being rebuilt. Perhaps Stagner got it wrong and there were actually six in the program. Whether there were two or six, it brings up a question. The 1899-1902 built Frisco Americans got feedwater heaters, but no mention of new boilers. The seven 1890's built Katy 4-4-0's got new boilers when they were rebuilt between 1923 and 1925 but apparently no feedwater heaters. So, since we are talking here about MODERN 4-4-0's, which would have made the locomotive more modern of those two alternatives; a new boiler or a feedwater heater?

Les[/quote]