There's always one group that the locals don't 'take kindly to' and it varies from place to place. In the South, it was (and still is, many would say) Blacks. But here in the Pacific Northwest where I live today, it's the local tribes. In the South, people lied about having Indian heritage because it was impressive to many people to have some portion of native in your blood. Not at all, here. I live near a reservation and the way people react to the members of the tribe rivals anything I saw against blacks growing up in the deep South.
As for the internment camps in WW2 that was just mentioned, many Italian and German families were also locked up in them, but not nearly as many as West-Coast people of Japanese descent. Like most of history, the details get oversimplified and forgotten...

Another interesting fact...the Pullman Company never sold a ticket to a person of color...never. It did not matter what side of the Mason-Dixon line the train ran on...it just never happened. Pullman was a company that was controlled/owned by Northerners...Yankees if you will.

T7

Well..not so fast. I know for certain blacks had accomodations in Pullman cars. In fact, blacks and whites both rode in Pullmans together because the partitions between compartments satisfied the segregation which was the law of the land at that time. Having Pullman porters, locomotive firemen and trackmen in my family line, I know that was so.

Among some of my late great uncles' passengers were Pearl Bailey, Mahailia Jackson, Dorothy Dandridge, and Louis Armstrong.

As far as firemen went, at least here in Texas, there were only a few roads which would allow a black man in the cab. Missouri Pacific and the Santa Fe had black firemen and brakemen. They were barred by union agreement from ever being promoted to engineer until the 1960's, although it was not uncommon for them to run at the engineers' discretion.

I wish a certain person would post the comments that he sent me in a personal message. I have suggested that he do so. I'd be fascinated to hear how others react to his opinions.

Tom

In my times, the Pullman Company never sold a ticket to anyone, no matter what their color. Railroad ticket agents sold the tickets, although Pullman Conductors did sometimes collect cash fares. So, I think it's a trick question and a matter of semantics and technicalities.

Today it is hard to put ourselves in the mind set of past times when railroad union constitutions had racist clauses that prohibited membership by other than white men. For a good look at this time I suggest the book "Good, Reliable, White Men: Railroad Brotherhoods, 1877 - 1917," by Paul Michel Taillon, published in 2009 by the University of Illinois Press.

Hi,

I recall a two lines from a movie or TV show:

History is what the victor says it is.
History is used for covering up unwanted truths.

I believe some say that you can not judge the actions of others when you do not apply what they knew at the time and what the social atmosphere was.

As an example, the Allies in the Pacific thought the Japanese were barbaric when they cut off prisioners heads. By there code of Shinto(?), the Samuri would cut off heads of greatly honored enemies. It was a terrible disgrace to surrender and avoid death.

I find it difficult to think in terms I do not agree with, but understanding of the why's and wherefores of certain actions become clear.

I put forth that Camp Douglas in Chicago during the Civil war was much worse than the much touted Andersonville in Georgia.

The social segregation based upon looks (skin tone, sex, Chinese, American Indian) is an uncomfortable field and an interesting one.

At one point in about 1969-1974 I came across two different reports that have never been much lauded that says the custom of slavery in the South was declining and would have probably died out about 1890 if the Civil War had not happened. The reason was the expense of taking care of the slaves. As costs to maintain the slaves (health care, food, housing, etc) rose, the less profitable they were to use.

A sort of similar situation occured on the railroads dealing with mutiple gauges. The transloading of cargos made sense only while labor was cheap.

Movements in the Northern states included suing the South for peace (the idea was basically why keep the south and have our men die when the South wants to leave - States rights). Until Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclomation. This turn a war over states rights into a holy war to free the slaves. Lincoln correctly knew he had to keep the Union together and this genious move allowed him to get rid of the separation of opinions in the North.

WWII was also a holy war. But Korea and Vietnam were never seen as holy wars.

I obviously find history fascinating and enjoy railroading and the "wild" west the most interesting.

Doug vV

(tongue-in-cheek) American by birth, Southern by the grace of God.

I'm not convinced there can be such a thing as a holy war.... but I suppose it depends on what you believe is holy. No God who requires you destroy others of His / Her / Their creation to gain supernatural favor is worth worshiping.

So anybody going to incorprate all this history for black history month at your orginazations?

Growing up all my life as a black (mixed race) individual something I often sadly don't take enough pride in being, its a sad sight to realize that America if ever truly "free" would be the time of today. Railroading itself has always been my livelihood something I've just grown to love throughout my whole life and to be honest I'm probably a minority within the mainstream interests of most Black Americans. The reason why you'll likely never see a black teenager working at a railroad museum or similar institution isn't necessarily because they have no interest but because it's seen as a "white" hobby by many within the African American community (no offense to anyone by any means) so people feel reluctant to join for the constant fear of being labelled an outcast and shame to the black community.
We can't by all means change the past but my question has always remained at what can we do as rail preservationists to further branch out to more minority based students thus preserving the fabric of such nostalgic memories.

Cameron

Well, I've developed a prejudice about black railfans and model railroaders. Every one that I've encountered has been a really nice guy, and wouldn't mind having any one of them as friends.

Speaking of railfans, while train watching with a bunch of guys, we've observed black railroad crewmen. They seem to be taken aback by all of these white guys giving them "the wave" as they pass by.

If there is any truth to the allegation made above--and I sense there is at least an iota of truth the concept--then there's really nothing that CAN be done about it from the preservation community. Such poisonous, "toxic" mentalities as that have to be eradicated from within the community in question, typically itself an urbanized subset of the entire African-American population.

Were any of the railroads enthusiastic about segregation? A photo caption on page 39 of
the Summer, 2015 issue of "Classic Trains" tells us about a Baggage - Dormitory - Chair
Car:I cannot confirm the truth of the caption, but if it is true, I would expect that the practice
applied to other trains on the road, like the through transcontinental cars to New York
that didn't require a change in Chicago. Is there any other evidence or personal memory
that can be posted here? What about reports in the house organ of the Ticket Agents'
and General Passenger Agents' trade organization?

While I don't agree that there could not be some somewhere (black teenagers working as volunteers). I have never seen any. If I had had the opportunity, I would have. But one question remains unanswered which has been asked by me and now asked once again...what have you or your organizations done to foster black membership on your organizations?

Look at the pictures you see of mainline steam operations and most excursion operations. Who do you see? I know African Americans like trains..I have seen them bring their children who were just as wide-eyed as their Caucasian brothers...and also their surprise when they saw me bringing this steam belching monster into the station. I took the extra step of making it a point to bring them up in the cab when and where I could, to give them the exposure they might not otherwise have been given.

Bottom line...EVERYONE likes trains. Reaching out to them in urban communities is how you get them. I know there are a few well known operations which as downright hostile to African Americans. I have experienced their actions firsthand. Some of their members post here, on this very forum. My expertise and my money went elsewhere.

Keeping this business alive means we need to be inclusive. Tell the stories of A. Philip Randolph, Simm Webb, Elijah McCoy, and countless others. History has to be seen to be inclusive, which if you go to any museum, black families rarely if ever see themselves as part of the story. Make them part of the story. Embrace them. You will see a difference.

An all-out recruiting effort to get black membership into our preservation groups could be seen as patronizing, and probably wouldn't be needed in the first place. You can't push a person to start liking something that he or she doesn't naturally like on his or her own. But I don't think that's necessary. Go to a railroad historical institution in a town with a significant black population. The B&O Museum in Baltimore is an example. Among the visitors you'll see lots of bright and enthusiastic black kids who would be willing and valuable assets to any preservation effort that will accept and encourage them. Recently I visited the Chesapeake & Allegheny Live Steamers in Baltimore and was told their youngest member is a black kid in grammar school. Why should we think recruiting black members, of any age, should be any different from recruiting members of any other race? On the other hand, a concerted effort to include all young people, with no particular focus on one race or another, is more relevant. If we are welcoming to all, and I do mean ALL, across the board, I think racial balance in our ranks will take care of itself. If we can't do that, it's our loss.

Tom