4501's cab roof surely was not red because Claytor had a whim. Merriman, Claytor, and others wanted to recreate SR passenger steam and while not all had red roofs, apparently it was common enough that that was the selection they made. They wanted steam in passenger livery badly enough to deck a freighter in green and gold; they wouldn't put a red roof in the mix if it was not prototypical and mess up the illusion just because someone randomly decided to paint the roof red. There were several ways an SR passenger engine could look and they chose that one.

DPM's 4501 book* mentions Merriman, who hailed from the midwest, as a grad student at Duke in the early 1930's being impressed by a PS-2 Pacific and describes it in detail, include the "brick-red cab roof."

* Page 34

Let me throw this into the mix...an old timer once told me that SR painted the tender decks red on locomotives that had...(get ready for it)...Stokers! As an alert for hostlers and coal cutters.

The 0-8-0 in Oakdale was famous locally...it was indeed green and had polished brass all over it. The assigned engineer made the upgrades for his own enjoyment. Was there ever another 0-8-0 so equipped?

I have heard that many of the coach yard switchers were green...including Washington, DC.

Now...I have also heard that the Appalachia Division never painted their passenger engines green...they stayed black til the end. Do we have proof of that?

T7

Locomotive cabs were carmans work. Iron oxide red is a color they knew well, as it was also boxcar red. Black was a difficult paint to work with as it did not want to dry. Black did not become popular until the synthetic enamel was developed. My guess is that the cab roof had to be repainted frequently due to damage and wear from cinders. Railroads usually painted equipment to match the color of the contamination that would discolor it. It could be the locomotive roofs were red to match the rust color that may have developed do to the cinders wearing the paint off quickly.

Filmtek you might be very right on that part about a P2! While this is just a painting, it was painted by an old SR employee. It could be fake, but there is a pretty good chance its real or at least realistic...?

It is interesting how much folklore is out there about details like this.

I wanted to add that many locomotives with iron oxide cab roofs often had coal bunkers and tender decks painted with this same finish.

Given this paint's durability and rust resistance, you can count me in the camp of folks that say this red color was applied to the surfaces that received the most wear and abuse from cinders, coal, and boots. The color's ability to disguise rust is another important benefit that's already been described.

The blonking to this story is why would not the boilers be painted red for the same purpose?!? I guess they were hot and the paint would bake on better after drying out first.
Early engines had wood cabs perhaps the paint protected from cinders/sparks, the technique may have just passed on with the style about it. Seems like again each road had its own paint scheme, the cab roof paint also varied with the purpose/intent.

We are currently repainting a B&O I-5d caboose back into B&O livery. After studying hundreds of photos the one thing I have figured out is that even though you would think a big railroad like the B&O would be standardized, they weren't, at all. There are a couple of wonderful books on B&O cabooses that have a lot of great information including paint and lettering diagrams. As I've gone through photos I see countless variations. I'm sure if you check over the locomotive fleet there will be a lot of variation as well.

I personally like the splash of color on black locomotives. Over the years I formulated the opinion that the boiler jacket was easy to care for and keep clean and wiped down. The cab roof not so much. Having a good heavy coat of red lead to take the constant abuse with minimal cleaning was the way to do it. Additional red lead could be slathered on with minimal prep work and would look pretty good. Just my own educated guess.

Disclaimer: I'm no authority on this question, just an observer. There are several color photos of Southern passenger power that people contributed to my web site (two Pacifics and a 4-8-2). They show the locomotives as green but I can't detect a red cab roof. The only red roofs appear to be on the 4501 and the (ex-C&O) 2716 that were painted for post-steam-era excursion duty.

With older color images of steam power, bear in mind that color photography wasn't in common use till the 1940s, so earlier images (especially, of course, postcards) were likely hand-colored by the publisher and can't be relied on as true representations of color. For example, a postcard of the Keokuk Union Depot published in the 1920s shows the roof as green, when it was actually pinky-orange clay tiles. Green shingles weren't applied till around 1950.

The picture of the Southern Railway 4-8-2 with the red roof posted earlier is used a lot as "proof" that SOU steamers had red roofs, but the photo has been colorized. Below is the same locomotive in the same location, but a different photo without the colorization and it doesn't have a red roof. It is generally believed among those who model Southern Railway steam that the cabs had either green or black roofs, and while some might have had red roofs, definitive photographic proof has yet to surface.

That is one of the photos on my web site, to which I referred. The transparency was taken by Shelby Lowe at Inman Yard in Atlanta in 1946, and was provided to me by Tom Rock of T.D.R. Productions.

I see that photo was taken in 1946...
In the post-war era you have to wonder about the availability of paints that may have been deemed "unnecessary". I have certainly seen enough surplus shop tools with a little plate riveted on that says something like "the paint finish on this tool was deemed necessary by by the war material authorization board"...so something similar.

Even though locomotives were important...perhaps the red roofs were not seen as necessary?

T7

T7,

The famed 0-8-0 you mentioned was nicknamed "Dolly" and was the pride of engineer Charles Snyder. She was dolled up from front to back and became the subject of a Ron Flanary painting and subsequent write-up in Trains (attached). She, however, was not painted green. I've also included a shot of 6030 after she lost her "bling" and became just another CNO&TP switcher.


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I can buy into the theory some were left primer red, but my railroad mentor John Farris said his railroad mentor, the late Flem Smith (open the Prince book and look at the "credits" by Prince), never once saw a red roof on the CNO&TP in our hometown of Georgetown, KY.

I am attaching a picture of a Lexington Herald article from 1926 announcing the arrival of the green PS4s. Clearly, the Southern wanted the media to know the tops of the tenders and cabs were indeed, green. The picture in a previous post of 6482 with a red tender top in ATL was well after she was demoted off the CNO&TP (thus why her Wimble is missing).



To the theory the SR logo on the cylinders indicated the locomotive was painted green, I submit evidence of an early CNO&TP mike in Louisville, KY. She's in her freight dress, but with a logo on the cylinder.



The theory there were green steam switchers is a new one to me, but I suppose it's plausible in major passenger terminals. I do own this photo from the late Flem Smith's collection. On the back of this photo in Shelby Lowe's handwriting to Flem he states this 0-6-0 6019 working Lexington Yard is "all dressed up like the big girls" ... Clearly she's trimmed out in gold and I believe she's still in black, but who really knows? I'm going to dig deeper in my collection to see what other pictures I have of Southern switchers and if you can tell one is a different shade than the others.



And in closing, I apologize for the shine/reflection on the photos. I took these with my iphone as I didn't have time to scan them in properly. All of these photos are from my personal collection.

Iron Oxide or Mineral Red was being used by Baldwin for tender fuel bunkers and tank decks before it was a standard option for cabs. I believe most Baldwin wood cabs in the 19thC used terne metal as roofing over the wood. This lead-covered sheet metal was fire proof and didn't need paint.

At some point in the late 19thC, Baldwin started to offer steel cabs. When that happened, it appears to have become standard for Baldwin to paint cab roofs red. Keep in mind that it was also standard for Baldwin to paint locomotives olive, and jackets were often unpainted planished iron. Despite these standards, many railroads ordered engines to be delivered in black, but more locomotives from this time were delivered in green (often with red roofs) than some today imagine.

Please note I am not taking a position on the cabs of the Southern Railway, but this history would suggest that red cab roofs were once common on many railroads. Improvements in paint technology probably helped curtail this practice as black enamel paints became more durable.

"Passenger locomotives and tenders:
The parts painted green ~include the cab roof to the rain gutters....."

The quotation above is from the official Southern Railway paint instructions noted by Moderator Lisowski above. If that's the case, between the cab roof rain gutters would be left in primer, perhaps red oxide. There is no similar distinction for freight or switching locomotives.

When we got No. 60 running again at Black River back in the 1990s, 60's cab roof was painted primer red [the Corlar primer used with the Imron was red]. Applied on top of the primer (where nobody could see) were the words "UFOs LAND HERE!" spray-painted by hand one night by parties which will remain unnamed. :P



Now let's talk about the proper shade of green that all locomotive cabs ought to be painted.