Passenger cars south of the border

Topfuel · **Joined:** Sun Aug 29, 2004 4:49 pm **Posts:** 529

The only car I can identify out of the several in the compound N. of the cars in the street, is one of the ex-SAL PS 1949 10-6's with the odd-ball pseudo-Budd corrugated roofs. I believe this car would also be one of the last 4 cars that came out of Anbel Corp in Brownsville, TX in the early '90's.

Tavor · **Joined:** Fri Dec 21, 2012 4:32 pm **Posts:** 200

Hm. So does anybody have any idea why these cars are just lined up in the edge of the street?

davew833 · **Posted:** Fri Jul 19, 2013 8:20 pm

Best guess is that 'Silver Creek International' the company that ran the train, and owns or owned the equipment is out of business.

Noodling around on Google maps reveals some information that I've diagrammed on a satellite photo below. The metal fabrication facility of SEMESA Mexicana S.A. is on the same street as the Silver Creek train is stored. Several cars are inside their fabrication yard, but the tracks connecting the yard are paved over and look to have been that way for some time, effectively landlocking the cars in the yard.

Weblurker's Dome MAIN indicates that in 2003, Silver Creek was building up to four "Maxi-Domes" for excursion operation in Mexico from pre-existing baggage cars. Below is a link to a 2003 photo on the Weblurker's website of the car under construction.

http://trainweb.org/DOMEmain/picMEXa.jpg

The same car seems to appear in the 2009 satellite photo, uncompleted, in what could be the same spot. Four other passenger cars- two lightweight, one heavyweight, possibly one short baggage car, and maybe a diesel, as well as what appear to be several sets of trucks appear in the satellite photo as well.

Again, just speculation, but perhaps SEMESA was contracted to maintain the cars and Silver Creek operation has since folded, leaving the cars on, or near SEMESA property.

davew833 · **Posted:** Fri Jul 19, 2013 8:31 pm

The Ferrovias Mexicanas railroad maintenance and fabrication company in the same city seems to be connected to the operation as well. Not sure how current the pictures at the link below are, but the fabrication yard seems to be the same one seen in the Google earth images. Maybe it's now SEMESA or they're related somehow.

http://www.ferroviasmexicanas.com/galerias/trenes.htm

David Johnston · **Posted:** Sat Jul 20, 2013 7:42 pm

In December 1967 I spent three weeks traveling the length of Mexico by train. It was such an important part of their transportation system, it is hard to imagine the country without rail passenger service. At that time there was still steam and electric operation on the main lines. In looking back I would say the trip from Guadalajara to Mexico City was the high light. It was a night train and was all Pullman. At that time the sleeping car service was run by the Pullman Company of Mexico. The train was all heavyweight, all sections, about 20 cars. That evening my train was one of seven sections of the same train making the trip. There were probably 250 Pullman cars running between Guadalajara and Mexico City every evening. When walking the length of the train, I always stuck my head in the men's room as the pressed plate glass windows were likely to have a US railroad logo pressed in them. The passenger trains were all diesel hauled at that time, but that night we passed several trains being pulled by the Mountains or Northerns, what ever they were. The equipment was well maintained and the service was excellent.

onequiknova · **Posted:** Sat Jul 20, 2013 11:05 pm

Jeff Lisowski wrote:

onequiknova wrote:

http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=26.42372,50.142272&spn=0.002248,0.003406&t=h&z=18

Here is what I believe to be the CB&Q Budd cars in Saudi Arabia. You can make out the unique bulge on the roofs of the power cars. You can also make out one Budd style obs, and if you scroll to the left a bit, past the yard near some industrial buildings, you'll see the other obs sitting with a couple more cars. There appear to be two more round end obs's there, which I assumed one would be the N&W obs. You can make out a couple RDC's as well.

I doubt this stuff will ever make it back here, but interesting none the less.

John

Revisiting this topic.

Looking at the map in Saudi Arabia, it is an updated image from the last time I looked and I see zero passenger cars in the yard where previously there were.

Maybe they've moved indoors, who knows...

I looked a couple months back, and after a bit of searching, they have been moved to the west a little ways, parked on another siding. I'll see if I can find them again.

Edit: Here are the new coordinates. 26.181704,49.983745

Gary Gray · **Posted:** Sun Jul 21, 2013 12:17 am

Interesting that the "Arrow" observation apparently still exists. 20 years ago we were making inquiries about the car and it's possible repatriation. Then came October 1994 and the world changed for us economically and operationally.

Getting back to "South of the Border", the N&W sold a significant amount of it's heavyweight passenger car fleet to Mexico in the 1960's, perhaps as much as 25 % of original N&W cars after the Wabash/NKP merger. Included were many head-end cars, 2 entire classes of coaches, significant numbers of a third class, and at least 2 diners. Rumor has one of the diners still in existence as of about 5 years ago. I'd love to find out what may have actually survived, either in M of W or preservation

skytop45 · **Joined:** Mon Dec 06, 2010 12:01 pm **Posts:** 50

One of the two MILW tap-lounge cars survives at the museum in Puebla as noted earlier. Photo below.

Rainier Rails · **Posted:** Tue Aug 06, 2013 8:06 pm

skytop45 wrote:

One of the two MILW tap-lounge cars survives at the museum in Puebla as noted earlier.

Would this be the #173, which went from the Oregon, Pacific & Eastern to LA County to Mexico as CHP #107?

Tavor · **Joined:** Fri Dec 21, 2012 4:32 pm **Posts:** 200

davew833 wrote:

Best guess is that 'Silver Creek International' the company that ran the train, and owns or owned the equipment is out of business.

Noodling around on Google maps reveals some information that I've diagrammed on a satellite photo below. The metal fabrication facility of SEMESA Mexicana S.A. is on the same street as the Silver Creek train is stored. Several cars are inside their fabrication yard, but the tracks connecting the yard are paved over and look to have been that way for some time, effectively landlocking the cars in the yard.

Weblurker's Dome MAIN indicates that in 2003, Silver Creek was building up to four "Maxi-Domes" for excursion operation in Mexico from pre-existing baggage cars. Below is a link to a 2003 photo on the Weblurker's website of the car under construction.

http://trainweb.org/DOMEmain/picMEXa.jpg

The same car seems to appear in the 2009 satellite photo, uncompleted, in what could be the same spot. Four other passenger cars- two lightweight, one heavyweight, possibly one short baggage car, and maybe a diesel, as well as what appear to be several sets of trucks appear in the satellite photo as well.

Again, just speculation, but perhaps SEMESA was contracted to maintain the cars and Silver Creek operation has since folded, leaving the cars on, or near SEMESA property.

Saw this on Flickr the other day:
"Antiguos coches de Pasajeros de Nacionales de Mexico que fueron parte de un proyecto por implementar un tren de pasajeros turistico llamado independencia que recorreria varios puntos de interes relacionados con la independencia de Mexico cocmo: Queretaro, San Miguel de Allende, etc. en aquellos tiempos (2004-2005) se decia que el precio del viaje en el tren independencia rondaria los 10,000 pesos). Estos coches fueron prestados por el propiertario(s) para un viaje en la convencion de ferroaficionados de San Luis Potosi (no recuerdo el anio). Dormimos en ellos un dia antes del viaje el olor a Pullman (coches dormitorio) es inconfundible y remonta a las buenas epocas de Nacionales de Mexico. Desconozco la razon por la que hayan terminado en el olvido y en este estado tan lamentable."

Translated by Google we get...:
Former National Passenger cars of Mexico that were part of a project to implement a tourist passenger train called independence would travel several points of interest regarding the independence of Mexico cocmo Queretaro, San Miguel de Allende, etc.. at that time (2004-2005) it was said that the price of independence train ride would be around 10,000 pesos). These cars were provided by the propiertario (s) for a trip to the convention of ferroaficionados of San Luis Potosi (forget the anions). We slept in them one day before the trip the smell of Pullman (sleeping car) is unmistakable and back to the good times of National Mexico. Not know the reason I have finished in oblivion and in this pitiful state.

Rainier Rails · **Posted:** Fri Sep 20, 2013 4:19 am

Rainier Rails wrote:

skytop45 wrote:

One of the two MILW tap-lounge cars survives at the museum in Puebla as noted earlier.

Would this be the #173, which went from the Oregon, Pacific & Eastern to LA County to Mexico as CHP #107?

It is indeed the CHP #107!

MILW 44 seat coffee shop-tap lounge #173 built in 1948 (assigned to the Twin Cities Hiawatha until 1953). Sold to Oregon, Pacific & Eastern Railroad in 1971 as OPE #173 in Roseburg, OR. Sold to LA County in approx. 1976 as LA #107 "Montebello". Sold to Copper Canyon Express Co. in 1980 as #107 "Cañon de Urique". To CHP as #107 "Club Chihuahua Pacifico". To Puebla Railroad Museum.

Thanks to Skytop45 for the information on CHP #107!

Found a picture of the CHP #107 at the museum, and was also able to identify the Budd slab-side (smooth-sided) car next to it: FNM #754 "Leon".

History of FNM #754 "Leon":

MP 10RM-6DB sleeper #612 "Elk River" constructed in 1949 by Budd in Lot #9660-027 to Plan #9504. The MP ordered two separate Lots of 10-6 sleepers from Budd, six cars each. The first, Lot #9660-027, was delivered in 1949, and the second, Lot #9660-171, was delivered in 1956. Of these twelve Budd 10-6 sleepers, at least ten were sold to NdeM/FNM over the years.

#610 "Canyon River" (1949) sold to NdeM approx. 1969 as "Libia" (number unknown).

#611 "Crystal River" (1949) to crew dormitory-lounge #11 "Eagle" (roomettes removed) in 1971. To UP via merger in 12/1982. Sold to NdeM in approx. 1986 as #3594 (no name?).

#612 "Elk River" (1949) to private owner, Amtrak registration #800075. To FNM at unknown date as #754 "Leon". To Puebla Railroad Museum.

#613 "Roaring River" (1949) sold to NdeM approx. 1969 as "Luxemburgo" (number unknown).

#614 "Eagle Butte" (1949) sold to NdeM approx. 1969 as "Nicaragua" (number unknown).

#616 "Eagle Haven" (1956) sold to NdeM approx. 1969 as "Panama" (number unknown).

#617 "Eagle Hallow" (1956) sold to NdeM approx. 1969 as #583 "Paraguay".

#618 "Eagle Lodge" (1956) sold to NdeM approx. 1969 as #584 "Peru".

#619 "Eagle Meadow" (1956) sold to NdeM aprrox. 1969 as #585 "Puerto Rico".

#620 "Eagle Rapids" (1956) sold to NdeM approx. 1969 as #586 "Uruguay".

BAR "Guadalajara":

Earlier in this thread there was discussion about how many of the heavyweights which were sold to Mexico over the years are no longer in existence, but I am pleased to have found a survivor. I have not been able to assemble the history of this business car. Riding on 2-axle trucks, it is painted as Bangor & Aroostook #181 "Guadalajara", and as of 2007 was located in Puebla (I don't know if its part of the museum collection or not) in fairly decent shape (no broken windows, no graffiti, no fire damage, and secured behind a barbed wire-topped chain link fence). Does anyone know the history of this business car, and if it is part of the museum collection?

Pictures:

1. CHP #107 & FNM #754 at the Puebla museum: http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2376946 (Mauricio Burguete photo)

2. NdeM #3594 in Mexico City, 9/1995: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1521903 (Raymundo Collada photo)

3. FNM #583 in Mexico City: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=755565 (Toshihiko Yamada photo)

4. BAR #181 in Puebla: http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=778193 (Emmanuel de la Vega-Gonzalez photo)

Rainier Rails · **Posted:** Fri Sep 20, 2013 5:00 am

Rainier Rails wrote:

The MP ordered two separate Lots of 10-6 sleepers from Budd, six cars each. The first, Lot #9660-027, was delivered in 1949, and the second, Lot #9660-171, was delivered in 1956. Of these twelve Budd 10-6 sleepers, at least ten were sold to NdeM/FNM over the years.

#614 "Eagle Butte" (1949) sold to NdeM approx. 1969 as "Nicaragua" (number unknown).

#616 "Eagle Haven" (1956) sold to NdeM approx. 1969 as "Panama" (number unknown).

#617 "Eagle Hallow" (1956) sold to NdeM approx. 1969 as #583 "Paraguay".

NdeM "Nicaragua" was #581, and the numbers seem to be assigned to the eight cars acquired in 1969 in alphabetical order, so logic dictates that the "Panama" would be #582.

Concerning the fate of the #581 "Nicaragua" and #583 "Paraguay", I searched MEXLIST on Yahoo! Finances and found a list of cars that were either in the process of or were waiting to be scrapped at Huehuetoca in 10/1999, including #581 and #583. None of the other MP 10-6 Budd sleepers were listed, so their fates remain unknown. At least the #612 "Elk River" has made it into preservation.

Here's the full list of cars at Huehuetoca for scrapping, reported 10/12/1999: http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/mexlist/conversations/messages/756

Topfuel · **Joined:** Sun Aug 29, 2004 4:49 pm **Posts:** 529

#610 "Canyon River" (1949) sold to NdeM approx. 1969 as "Libia" (number unknown).

#611 "Crystal River" (1949) to crew dormitory-lounge #11 "Eagle" (roomettes removed) in 1971. To UP via merger in 12/1982. Sold to NdeM in approx. 1986 as #3594 (no name?).

#612 "Elk River" (1949) to private owner, Amtrak registration #800075. To FNM at unknown date as #754 "Leon". To Puebla Railroad Museum.

#613 "Roaring River" (1949) sold to NdeM approx. 1969 as "Luxemburgo" (number unknown).

Canyon River to SCD as #579 "Libia".

Elk River retired by MP, held at Sedalia, MO. Sold by UP 1986 to Henry Renfert. Sold circa 1988 to Mexico.

Crystal River to NDM as #3594 "Agualeguas II".

Roaring River to SCD as #580 "Luxemburgo".

Topfuel · **Joined:** Sun Aug 29, 2004 4:49 pm **Posts:** 529

3. FNM #583 in Mexico City: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=755565 (Toshihiko Yamada photo)

Note that in this picture, the car does not have it's original 6 wheel OSH trucks, which was a very unusual feature of the 1956 center bedroom MP 10-6 sleeper order.

Rainier Rails · **Posted:** Fri Mar 04, 2016 8:30 am

Topfuel wrote:

Boy, you gotta love that Google street view. Thank's to davew833's direction, I was in San Luis Potosi in about 10 minutes. Sure beats the heck out of having to get on a plane to go down there.

Looks like the 3 lightweight sleepers are 2 rare ex-AT&SF Blue-series 10-3-2 sleepers (PS 1948) and 1 ACL County-series 10-6 (PS 1949). I suspect that these are all cars that came out of Anbel Corp in the early 1990's. I remember seeing them in Brownsville, TX about that time, before they left for Mexico.

I'll see if I can find the other 5 cars that davew833 refers to.

Topfuel wrote:

The only car I can identify out of the several in the compound N. of the cars in the street, is one of the ex-SAL PS 1949 10-6's with the odd-ball pseudo-Budd corrugated roofs. I believe this car would also be one of the last 4 cars that came out of Anbel Corp in Brownsville, TX in the early '90's.

Found this short thread on MEXLIST while looking for something else: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/MEXLIST/conversations/topics/6994

The 2 Santa Fe 10-3-2 Blue-series sleepers are the Blue Mott and the Blue Grove, the ACL 10-6 County-series sleeper is the Pinellas County, and the SAL 10-6 sleeper is the Savanna.

_________________
Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.