I was curious about this.

With the recent proposed/enacted evictions of many tourist/preservation railroads, coupled with the discussion around the I(llinios)RM ...
1. Who actually owns (not leases from a private/public entity) all or most of their right-of-way?
2. How long is it?
3. Are there portions owned but not in service?

For example:
WW&F Railway Museum, Alna Maine
Owns most *but not all* of its current ROW through its original chartered company, The Wiscasset and Quebec.
Current length is 2.5 miles
The W&Q owns roughly 30 miles of disconnected parcels. There are parcels contiguous to the active ROW to allow at least an additional 1.5 miles to be brought into service (with plans in-place to do so.)

Before this discussion goes any farther, how do you count:

The Verde Canyon
Grand Canyon RR
Silverton
CTS
Adrian & Blissfield (which has some freight service)

Bob H

I thought that IRM's trackage was owned by them?

As for what's not in service, doesn't it extend southeast a bit past the river? I think they've talked in their newsletter about it but that it doesn't make economic sense to bridge the gap for the short extra run that it would provide.

I don't know enough about any of these operations. However, I assume they are for-profit heritage railroads (as opposed to a non-profit museum.) Since "profit" in heritage railroading is a relative term (and "non-profit" is a tax status, not a business plan) I would categorize all of the above as an operating heritage railroad.

By your criteria, the Durango and Silverton, and Grand Canyon are probably tourist railroads...

The Cumbres and Toltec is very much a preserved railroad, owned jointly by the states of Colorado and New Mexico... for preservation. It is 64 miles long.

Not as long at the above, the Nevada State Railroad Museum owns the last 4 miles of the UP Boulder Branch, where our museum is located. We have trackage rights on an additional 10 miles of track, now owned by the City of Henderson. The two sections are currently disconnected, due to construction of Interstate 11. That project will include a bridge reconnecting the two segments. The branch was donated to the state in the late 1980's. The state gave Henderson the track within its limits (retaining trackage rights) The Henderson track is currently switched by the Union Pacific, which retains the portion of the branch in Las Vegas.

Another long preserved railroad would be the former Sacramento Northern line through Salono County California, owned by the Bay Area Electric Railway Museum at Rio Vista. They have 22 miles of track, but only operate on 10 miles of that.

Randy

Actually, this is the sort of situation that I'm curious/concerned about. Two state governments own the right of way and lease the operating rights to a third party. If the states of Colorado and/or New Mexico decided that their constituents would be better served by a paved motorized trail over Cumbres pass, the Friends of the Cumbres and Toltec could not prevent that. (Not that I consider this a likely scenario - but it could happen.)

I suspect ownership of the ROW by the organization ("tourist railroad" or otherwise) is actually pretty rare.

The Cumbres and Toltec is a federally chartered bi-state commission, in effect owned by the two states but somewhat independent... but the C&TS owns its own right of way...

The Commision now runs the railroad though its own organization. This was not always the case, but is now... I note that the Commission has been working to get the line, buildings and equipment on the National Register, which, which in this case, because of the quasi government ownership gives the railroad a great deal of protection as a railroad.

Randy

How about the White Pass? 100 + miles, with more than half of it in service?

JR

Absolutely. Catskill Mountain just died because the county changed it mind. Delaware and Ulster counties bought the old Ulster and Deleware railroad from Conrail when it wasn't included in 1976, intending to create a tourist railroad. They had the best of intentions but never came up with the money to fix several expensive problems (mainly bridges that needed work). The railroad finally decided to use their own money to open one bridge but Sandy wiped out another. In the meantime, new members of the county board appeared who thought it would be a good idea to attract yuppies and McMansions. And they had the nerve to ask how much longer they would have to wait for the line to be fixed up when it was they who never came up with the money for the line they owned.

The WW&F way is the right way IMHO, part of the reason it has such a devoted fan base and museum membership (myself included) even though a lot of us live thousands of miles away is that it doesn't have to worry about trying to convince a government entity of anything to ensure its survival and so none of the work they are doing will be for nothing. An attorney once told me: it is always better in court if they have to come to you for something they want rather than you needing to get it from them.

Definitely, but the WW&F is a very special case. The modern WW&F Railway Museum would not enjoy such a favorable legal situation were it not for the reluctance of Frank Winter (the last owner of the historical WW&F Railway Co.) to dispose of the railroad after service was abandoned in 1933, and the peculiar way in which he structured his estate (placing the railroad's remaining real property in the hands of a phony non-profit foundation), plus the durability of the original 1854 charter of the Wiscasset & Quebec RR. In a certain sense the original railroad never went away, and that's a rare gift to us from a preservation standpoint. (How many of us Maine narrow gauge fans wish we could also rebuild the SR&RL in the same way we're rebuilding the WW&F? The SR&RL group in Phillips has been trying to do just that for more than 40 years now, but they only own half a mile of ROW and that's probably as far as they will ever get, as much as I hate to admit it. Humpty Dumpty simply can't be put back together again.)

Of course, this can go both ways. For example, what are we to make of the East Broad Top? The original company is still there, still owns the railroad (minus the piece in Mount Union that was recently sold off), and has left it substantially intact, but can it truly be said to be "preserved"?

-Philip Marshall
(another devoted WW&F member)

The Commission has also discussed getting the C&TS listed on the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization's (UNESCO) World Heritage List. There are 1,031 sites on the list, including the Mountain Railways of India.

Hi,

As a point of interest, There were two (2) equally politically valid reasons for preserving the Cumbres & Toltec Scenic.

Obviously one is the preservation of the historical significance of the ex-D&RGW narrow gauge mainline.

The other is that the poorist (I think) counties in New Mexico and Colorado are the counties that Antonito, Colorado and Chama New Mexico reside in. The C&TS provides jobs (from the railroad directly and the secondory jobs in service industries catering to tourism). One of the political thoghts were to support the railroad was to keep people in the two counties off the welfare rolls. While not impossible for the line to be converted to a trail, it is much more highly unlikely for that to happen because of the jobs it provides.

I think this makes the situation of the C&TS more unique.

Food for thought.

Doug vV

The Coopersville & Marne in Michigan owns and uses all of their track (13 miles?) They only run passengers on the west half and have a freight customer on the east half. They purchased the west half in 1988ish, and the east half in the mid 1990s.

The latest Trains Mag has an article about the Rails/Trails debaucle.

The C&TS commission came into effect in the late 70s. prior to the commission both states puc oversaw the C&TS RR. Commisssioners have great power if they exercise it. The 4 commissioners are appointed by each states governor.

GCR owns most of the right of way to the park boundry. Near Quivero the RR crossed a pipeline that the Santa Fe apparently was getting payments for crossing the rt of wy. With the power plant closing at Laughlin they may own that streach of track. The park owns the track within the park. That has its own issues.

All spelling and composition issues are the result of hostile computer programs with auto correct for those who need to for fitting in or can only spell a word one way.

Robby Peartree