The Adirondack Museum in Blue Mountain Lake, NY has August Belmont's former private car, Oriental, dating from 1889. Due to Belmont's ownership of a large amount of stock in the Louisville & Nashville Railroad, the car was lettered for the L&N, and later passed into the road's ownership. It spent most of its live in the New York area, where the L&N's president was located for many years. The car has been indoors for a number of years, the interior is largely original and intact, while the exterior is seethed in steel.

The car served the L&N until donation in 1959, and it's amazing the interior, including the marble sinks, survived relatively unmolested by "modernization" including paint over the wood, etc.

What about the Central Vermont business car at the Shelburne Museum? Is it pre-1890?

I believe this fits the criteria of the subject of this topic. The NJ Museum of Transportation (NJMT)/Pine Creek RR took ownership and moved PRR Business Car #3999, “Trenton,” to their site. If I recall correctly this is a type Pd of 1880s vintage and is of all wood construction. The 3999 is stored indoors today, but remains largely untouched since it was moved in. It is fairly complete as to interior details.

IC #2 was built by Pullman in 1883, was rebuilt by IC in 1929, and received some repairs in 1950 (outshopped on October 19th). Sold to Thompson at an unknown date. The full numbering history for this car is unknown; was it #2 for its entire career?

2 Additional Surviving Pre-1890 IC Cars:

IC #4 was built by Jackson & Sharp in 1883 as Vicksburg & Meridian #395, later (when??) to the Alabama & Vicksburg (same number??), to IC #21 in 1927 (the A&V was leased by the IC in 1926), to #19 later that same year, to #12 (1st) (when??), to #20 (2nd) (when??), to #4 in 1940, transferred to the MofW department by 1964 as #X2405, later (when??) sold to the Louisiana Arts & Science Center in Baton Rouge, resold??/moved to the Children's Museum in Hammond in 2007, then (when??) acquired by the SE Louisiana Chapter NRHS and moved to McComb. Rebuilt in 1913, 1923, and 1938. The A/C and steel sheathing are noted on the diagram as applied in 1938, but for the sheathing, that seems late, so maybe a replacement of the steel sheathing applied during one of the earlier rebuilds? This car also carried the name Dixie sometime during its career; I don't know if that was during V&M, A&V, or IC ownership.

IC #5 was built by Gilbert Car Co. in 1888 as #9 (1st), to #12 (3rd) (when??), to #5 (2nd) in 1940, sold (when??) to a private owner in Bovina, MS. Rebuilt in January 1917 and 1939. The steel sheathing is noted on the diagram as applied in 1939, but that seems late, so maybe a replacement of the steel sheathing applied in 1917?

Sources:

1. IC passenger car diagram folio of June 1952.

2. IC passenger car roster pages: http://icrr.net/passenger.htm

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Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

Additional Survivors (And Scrapped Cars):

While no longer a business car, I thought I'd include:

GN baggage #429. Built by Barney & Smith in June 1893 as GN diner #552, reconfigured in November 1899 to buffet-smoker #752, transferred in June 1907 to Eastern of Minnesota as #790, transferred back to GN in August 1908 and reconfigured to buffet-parlor #7531, rebuilt in July 1924 to business car #A12, rebuilt in August 1940 to baggage car #429, transferred in June 1951 to the MofW department as tool car #O-3111, to BN, sold in February 1983 to Pacific Hide & Fur, later (when??) acquired by the Inland Empire Chapter NRHS-Inland Northwest Rail Museum (Spokane/Reardan, WA). The number of seats as #552, #752, #790, and #7531 are unknown.

Quebec, Montreal, Ottawa & Occidental RY parlor-sleeper Chapleau (homebuilt in 1881), rebuilt at an unknown date to a business car (# and/or name unknown), to CP at an unknown date as #25 and named Saskatchewan, sold (when??) to Cole & Martin, donated in 1986 to the Puget Sound RY Historical Association-Puget Sound Chapter NRHS-Northwest RY Museum (Snoqualmie, WA).

Two cars that have been deaccessioned by the Northwest RY Museum:

CP #11, built by whom?? in 1893 as sleeper Enoshima (configuration unknown), rebuilt in 1913 to a business car with the name Nova Scotia (work done at Angus Shops), renamed in 1918 to Manitoba, to #11 in 1929, sold in 1964 to Maynard Laing and moved to Snoqualmie, resold in 1974 to R.C. Clark, Jr., resold in 1986 to the museum and later (when??) scrapped.

NP #97, built by Pullman in 1883 as a pay car (# unknown), rebuilt in 1884 to #97, to #2 (1st) in 1888, to #1905 in 1939, transferred in 1943 to the MofW department as kitchen car #X-127 (work done at South Tacoma Shops), sold in 1968 to the Northwest RY Museum. Trucks went to chapel car #5 in 2012 (which was built by Barney & Smith in 1898).

Sources:

1. Info on the 2 scrapped cars was posted in December 2014 by "John T" in the following thread: http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=37479

2. Info on GN #429 from Ben Ringnalda's website: http://www.greatnorthernempire.net/

3. Info on CP #25 from the Northwest RY Museum's website: https://www.trainmuseum.org/

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Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

NP 1st 97
Business Car Northern Pacific 11/1883
Length over sills 50-10
Ex-Western Div. Pay Car.
To Bus. Car 97, 4/84.
ReNo. 2, 6/86.
To Sup't Car 1905,7/39.
To Outfit Car
X-127, 12/43.
Ret'd, S. Tacoma, 6/67.

-Hudson

Thanks, Hudson, for the additional info on NP #97!

Additional Survivors:

These first 2 cars were built a little bit later, but I thought I'd include them regardless:

GN #A18 (3rd), built by AC&F in July 1900 as #A18 (1st) for James J. Hill, renumbered in March 1924 to #A30 (2nd), renumbered in May 1925 to #A18 (3rd), sold in 1959 to the Yreka Western as #13.

GN #A4 (1st), homebuilt in March 1898 as #A4, transferred to the stores department in June 1936 as outfit car #O-3336, donated in May 1968 to the Historic Landmark Society of Montana, located at the Alder Gulch RR in Nevada City.

GN #A4 (2nd), built by Barney & Smith in 1882 (month unknown) as coach #208, later (when??) rebuilt to business car #A23, later (when??) renumbered to #A4 (2nd), center sills noted on diagram from August 1952 as applied in 1927 (outshopping date unknown), also noted as rebuilt by GN in 1930 (outshopping date unknown). Currently on display (under cover) in Crystal Lake, IL, as the #A4, with the name Fargo applied (I don't know if the car ever carried this name under GN ownership). What made it confusing in identifying this car was that: 1) unlike the #A4 (1st), it wasn't included in the surviving equipment lists on Ben Ringnalda's website; 2) there are multiple photos online taken of the #A4 (2nd) in Crystal Lake and the #A3 (2nd) which are (mis)identified simply as #A4, with no delineation of which car is which. The #A3 (2nd) was also donated (in November 1965) to the Historic Landmark Society of Montana and located in Nevada City (it was built by Barney & Smith in July 1906 as coach #265 [1st]). Surprisingly, I didn't locate any photos of the #A4 (1st) that would've otherwise added to the confusion. The GN diagrams I have were what I used to confirm that the car in Crystal Lake was not included in Ringnalda's listings and that it was indeed the #A4 (2nd), not another car which had been misidentified/mispainted as the #A4. The 1952 diagram shows that the car, besides retaining open platforms at both ends, also still had the older interior layout style, of a lounge observation next to one platform and the dining room next to the other, with a kitchen, crew room, state room, and bedroom in between in that order from dining end to lounge end.

The following photo is of the #A3 (2nd), misidentified as the #A4: https://www.flickr.com/photos/da_mere/516236950 (taken 5/25/2007 by "da_mere")

The following photos are of the #A4 (2nd), simply identified as #A4:

1. http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/gnA4.jpg

2. http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/gnA4a.jpg

3. http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=4021214 (taken 7/20/2014 by Nicholas Katz)

Sources:

1. GN passenger car diagram folio of August 1952

2. List of surviving GN business cars on Ben Ringnalda's website: http://www.greatnorthernempire.net/

3. Jerry LaBoda's photo links database: http://passcarphotos.info/

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Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

What about Southern Pacific #109 "San Carlos" which was built in 1889. I believe it was built as a business car. Last I heard it was stored at the California State Railroad Museum. Is it still there?

San Carlos is no longer in the collection of CSRM and it has recently been moved. There has been some news of this going around for awhile -- particularly with the SP Historical & Tech. Society.

I remember seeing the car prior to it going to CSRM in 1977 and the interior was in rough shape with corridor and other walls at the kitchen end having been long gone. It was built as a coach in 1888, became a business car in 1909 and went into MW service in 1937.

The SPH&TS members newsletter that is included with the just-out quarterly SP Trainline has information:

CSRM had de-assesioned the car in 2006; but, could not find a new home for the car. The museum had started to dismantle the car when SPH&TS VP Scott Inman got together with the Pacific Coast Chapter of the R&LHS and the Museum to save the car. With donations from both PCC/R&LHS and SPH&TS members paid for moving the car and some future maintenance at its new home.

The new home is The Black Butte Center for Railroad Culture.

Thanks for the info! Sorry to hear that it had fallen on rough times but at least it sounds like it has a fighting chance for a good future.

In Cheyenne we have the Wagner sleeping car 'Omaha' from 1866, unknown of it was a private or business car or regular sleeper, built as a 10 section drawing room and sleeping car. Body only but is in line to be saved at the right time and has to be one of the oldest cars surviving in the USA.

Ironhorse Central near Lindstrom, Minnesota, has Northern Pacific superintendent’s car No. 1989. It was built by Wason Car in 1870 as a coach, and later rebuilt by the NP into its current configuration. The interior is largely original and in excellent condition. The car is equipped with sleeping quarters, a large drawing room, and a full kitchen. It is likely the oldest preserved passenger car in the state of Minnesota.

Photographed when we moved the car from the covered shelter into the car barn. No. 1989 is housed indoors and protected from the weather. The late Richard E. Thompson is on the rear platform.

1882 - blt (May) by H&H as Langdon & Shepherd Construction Car. 1885 (Feb) ownership transferred to CPR (still listed as Langdon & Shepherd Construction Car). 1886 (Feb) numbered CPR, BUSINESS # 76. 1894 (Sept) named "ROSEMERE", number dropped. 1916 (Oct) renamed "NEW BRUNSWICK". 1919 (Dec) renamed "ROSEMERE". 1922 (March) to Edmonton, Dunvegan & British Columbia Railway "DUNVEGAN". 1929 ED&BC becomes Northern Alberta Railway. 1948 reclassed AUXILARY # 3. 1964 to Heritage Park, Calgary AB # 76

UPDATE Quebec, Montreal, Ottawa & Occidental RY parlor-sleeper Chapleau (homebuilt in 1881), rebuilt at an unknown dateto a business car (# and/or name unknown), to CP at an unknown date as #25 and named Saskatchewan, sold (when??) to Cole & Martin, donated in 1986 to the Puget Sound RY Historical Association-Puget Sound Chapter NRHS-Northwest RY Museum (Snoqualmie, WA).

built as PARLOUR, equipped with 4 wheel trucks. 1882 (June) transferred to North Shore Railway "CHAPLEAU". 1985 (Sept) to CPR "CHAPLEAU". 1890 (March) rebuilt to OFFICIAL "EARNSCLIFFE", equipped with 6 wheel trucks. 1917 (March) renamed "SASKATCHEWAN". 1928 (Feb) numbered # 25, name dropped. 1951 (April) reclassed BUSINESS. I have listed as, 1964 to Puget Sound Railway Museum.

UPDATE CP #11, built by whom?? in 1893 as sleeper Enoshima (configuration unknown), rebuilt in 1913 to a business car with the name Nova Scotia (work done at Angus Shops), renamed in 1918 to Manitoba, to #11 in 1929, sold in 1964 to Maynard Laing and moved to Snoqualmie, resold in 1974 to R.C. Clark, Jr., resold in 1986 to the museum and later (when??) scrapped.

"ENOSHIMA" was built as 12 Section-1 stateroom sleeping car, June 1893 by CPR's Hochelaga Shops. The stateroom was more like a compartment than drawing room.

UPDATE CPR #38 - Built Barney & Sharp in March 1883 as CPR "Sackatchewan" and was assigned to William Cornelius Van Horne. He made extensive use of this car and was on his funeral train in 1915 to Joliet Ill where he was buried. Retained in CPR's fleet, it was retired in the late 1950s and was within two weeks of being torched and scrapped, when a member of the CRHA (which owns the museum) discovered the car by accident in Toronto while he was on a business trip. Eventually, the CPR did donate the car to the museum where it currently resides.

1916 (Jan) reclassed OFFICIAL "LAURENTIAN". 1916 (Nov) renamed "QUEBEC". 1929 (Aug) numbered # 38, name dropped. 1951c reclassed BUSINESS. 1958 to Canadian Railway Museum / Expo Rail, Delson QC.

St. Lawrence & Ottawa Railway, PARLOUR "RIDEAU", built by Crossen before 1881. 1882c to BUSINESS # 10. 1882 (Aug) ownership transferred to CPR. 1885 (July) renumbered CPR # 77. 1893 (July) renumbered # 15. 1906 (April) named "LILLOOET", number dropped. 1917 (March) renamed "ALBERTA". 1919 (July) numbered # 39, name dropped. 1956 (Aug) to S.F. Sharp, used as hunting lodge at Portage la Prairie MB. 1976 to Fort La Reine Museum, Portage la Prairie MB. Car equipped with open platforms at both ends.


UPDATE CPR #1 - Built by Crossen c.1864 for the St.Lawrence and Ottawa as their #9, it became part of CPR when the company was purchased in the early 1880s. It was retired in 1960 as CP #1 and donated to the museum. It is notable for having carried some of the "Fathers of Confederation (Canada)" at the 1864 Ottawa conference and same at the signing of the Canadian Confederation in 1867.


1881 leased to CPR, then purchased in 1882. 1882 (Oct) to CPR # 77, assigned General Superintendent Western Division (Winnipeg MB). 1886 (March) renumbered # 78, assigned General Superintendent Pacific Division (Port Moody BC). 1894 (March) renumbered # 14, assigned Eastern Division. 1907 (May) renumbered # 1. 1963 to Canadian Railway Museum / Expo Rail, Delson QC. Car was listed as retired and stored in 1960.

In the IP, Brian Norden wrote:

"An honorary mention needs to go to the Virginia & Truckee coach #17. All evidence points to the car being used by Stanford for the trip to Promontory Summit for the Gold Spike ceremony in May 1869. This car was later thoroughly rebuilt to a coach by the V&T and there is little, if any, evidence of the private car interior."

Four years ago Nevada State RR Museum contracted for a feasibility study of V&T coach 17. An investigation of the ceiling area revealed evidence of the locations of the interior partitions, dividing the car into parlor, bedroom, dining room, and galley. As to be expected, the study raised more questions than it answered. And, as the car served as a "private car" on both the CP and the V&T--with an intervening rebuilding--dating the evidence is not straight forward. There is no question that the car has been rebuilt over the years, but the basic structure seems to have remained consistent.

DJS

From the business car page on the website of the Rio Grande Modeling & Historical Society (http://www.drgw.org/data/passenger/steel/business.htm), here are the histories for the five narrow gauge D&RG and RGS cars mentioned in the above quotes, as well as 6 additional D&RG survivors (2 of these 6 are potential survivors, i.e. I don't have concrete proof that they are indeed still extant):

The 2 Previously-Mentioned RGS Cars:

Edna was built by Jackson & Sharp in 1881 as D&RG #A (1st), was sold in July 1890 to Otto Mears as the RGS San Juan, was renamed Edna in the Fall of 1899, was numbered #B-20 in August 1921 at D&RG's Burnham Shops in Denver, was remodeled in 1925, with battery-powered lighting installed, and was sold in 1951 to Knott's Berry Farm.

Rico was built in 1883 (builder not listed) as D&RG RPO #17, was renumbered in 1886 to #4, was renumbered in 1888 to #569, was sold in 1890 to the RGS and was rebuilt to business car #C-3, was named Rico in 1892, was numbered #B-21 in 1913, and is now at the Colorado RR Museum. The website does not have any info on the car's history after 1913.

The 3 Previously-Mentioned D&RG Cars:

Nomad (3rd) was built by Billmeyer & Small in 1878 as coach #16 Fairplay, was rebuilt in 1885 to business car #N, was renumbered in 1913 to #B-2 (1st), was rebuilt after being damaged in 1917 as the #B-3 (2nd), was rebuilt again in 1921, named General Wm. J. Palmer (1st) in 1949 for the Chicago Railroad Fair, was retired and sold in 1951 to a private owner, was renamed in 1958 to Nomad (3rd), was resold in 1964 to the Cinco Animas Corp., and was resold again in 1982 to the Durango & Silverton.

General William Jackson Palmer (2nd) was built by D&RG/Billmeyer & Small in 1880 as baggage #17, was renumbered in 1885 to #116, was rebuilt in 1886 to business car #R, was renumbered in 1913 to #B-7, was rebuilt in 1915, was rebuilt again in 1921, was rebuilt yet again in 1963 at Burnham and named William Jackson Palmer (2nd), and was sold in 1981 to the Durango & Silverton. It later had General added to its name.

Cinco Animas was built by D&RG in 1883 as emigrant sleeper #103, was changed in 1885 to tourist outfit car #0452 (1st), was rebuilt in 1909 to business car #F (2nd)*, was renumbered in 1913 to #B-5, was rebuilt in 1917 as #B-2 (2nd), was rebuilt again in 1921, had the open platforms modified to vestibules in 1924, was damaged in a fire in Alamosa in 1953, was retired and sold in 1954 to R.B. Downing (Oklahoma City), was resold in 1962 to H.B. Credson (also Oklahoma City), was resold again in 1963 to the Cinco Animas Corp., was moved to Burnham, where it was rebuilt the following year as the Cinco Animas (one vestibule was restored as an open platform), and was resold again in 1982 to the Durango & Silverton.

*#F (1st) had been wrecked on the RGS, and these 2 cars therefore switched places, with the #F (1st) becoming #0452 (2nd) (see the entry for #F [1st] further down).

4 Additional D&RG Survivors:

#K (2nd) was built by D&RG in 1885 as baggage #1, was renumbered in 1886 to #100, was rebuilt to business car #K (2nd) in 1887, was renumbered in 1913 to #B-8, was remodeled in 1916, was rebuilt in 1922, was retired and sold in 1927 to the Uintah Railway (still as #B-8), body was sold in 1939 to a private owner, and was acquired in 1959 by the Colorado Railroad Museum.

#F (1st) was built by Billmeyer & Small in 1879 as coach #24 Twin Lakes, was rebuilt in 1886 to business car #F (1st) for pay car use, was wrecked in 1909 on the RGS, was then swapped with tourist outfit car #0452 (1st) (the current Cinco Animas) as #0452 (2nd), to the Cumbres & Toltec Scenic in 1970.

#D was built by Jackson & Sharp in 1880 as coach #33 Bovincia, was modified in 1884 as superintendent's car #33, was rebuilt in 1885 to business car #D, was modified in 1904 to living quarters in Minturn, CO, was rebuilt in 1913 as #B-6, was rebuilt again in 1917 as #B-1 (2nd), was rebuilt yet again in 1921, was retired in 1952, body was sold to Marvin Milsap (Denver), was later (195?) resold to Everett Cole (Cañon City, CO), and was donated in 1954 to the Alamosa, CO, Chamber of Commerce. Displayed under cover with D&RG(W) 4-6-0 #169 in Alamosa's Cole Park.

#G (2nd) was built by D&RG/Billmeyer & Small in 1882 as RPO #20, was renumbered in 1885 to #7, was rebuilt in 1888 to excursion car #572, was rebuilt in 1892 to business car #G (2nd), was rebuilt in 1906 to baggage-RPO #119 (2nd), was modernized twice, in 1924 and 1937, was transferred in 1951 to the MofW department as #X-119, and was sold in 1981 to the Durango & Silverton, in use as concessions car #566.

2 Additional D&RG Potential Survivors:

Nomad (1st) was built by St. Charles in 1890 as Nomad (1st), was rebuilt in 1902 as the Denver (2nd), was sold (or leased) in 1910 to the WP as the Weldon, went back to the D&RG in 1913 as #A-2 (1st), was renumbered in 1915 to #A-1 (2nd), to USRA #89 in 1918, back to D&RG #A-1 later that year, renumbered in 1925 to #101 (1st), renumbered in 1929 to #107 (1st), transferred in 1942 to the MofW department as diner-kitchen-sleeper outfit car #X-3271, was retired in 1955, and the body is listed on the website as being located in Somerset, CO. Can anyone provide info on this car's exact current status or ownership? Thanks in advance!

Frederick was built by Jackson & Sharp in 1890 as coach #831, renumbered in 1909 to #873, rebuilt in 1910 to business car Frederick, renumbered in 1913 to #A-3, renumbered in 1925 to #103 (1st), renumbered in 1929 to #108, retired in 1942, the body was sold to unknown party in Welby, CO, and was later (when??) moved to Aspen and opened as the Parlor Car Restaurant. I did some searching, and couldn't find any indication that said restaurant is still in existence, so can anybody provide info on this car's current status/whereabouts, or has this car been scrapped? Thanks in advance!

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Additions and corrections are welcome. Thanks in advance.

I see this GN car is a little new and appears to be 1905 vintage. Hope nobody minds if I add this one to the mix. What amazes me is so many of these cars survived and some reasonably intact. Fascinating thread.

This car will hopefully have a better life shortly along with the majority of the unrestored fleet and some of the restored fleet with a new building that I think is going up next summer if the creek don't rise {God forbid}. Not well versed in the building or funding, but was donated with the A-22 in mind. I think this car is fairly solid despite the exteriors appearance. Was recently re-tarped to keep the big chunks out.

http://www.midcontinent.org/equipment-r ... hern-a-22/