I am processing the pictures of the two "Confederate Railroad" Cars near Cleburne, Texas. They are not interurban cars and they do in fact appear to be old wood passenger cars. I do not believe they have been sitting in the barn for over 100 years old because above the bolster is stenciled "Repacked - G.C.S.F.RY GA. - 1 14 40". The cars are probably pre-1900. They are short - approximately 40' long by 10' wide.

The farm was owned by a "higher up" railroad employee/official who worked at the Cleburne shops (this was not a common laborer's ranch). I am from the electric side of railroading, so some of you will have to help me interpret the pictures, but these are very interesting cars. I will post the link to the pictures around 10:30pm central time.

Andy Nold
NTHT, Inc.

tnold@northtexastransport.org

OK, Well, somehow I accidentally deleted my home page, so the website is down. However, the passenger car photos are being posted to an auxilliary page, so click on the link below to see the pictures. If it's Wednesday night and you don't see all the boxes filled in, check back later or tomorrow, I'm still working on it.


Cleburne Passenger Cars
tnold@northtexastransport.org

So, does the owner have a valid claim to back up her story that the previous owners' claim these cars once hauled soldiers during the recent unpleasantness? I am finished editing the website for the evening, sorry about the picture size for those of you with dial-up modems. I could not figure out how to make thumbnails. If anyone wants to make some thumbnails and email them to me, I will revise the page.

Looking forward to reading everyone's comments tomorrow. Feel free to ask additional questions as I may be able to answer things you can't see in the photogs.

Andy

PS: The main website will apparently be down for a day or two since I fat fingered the delete key. Feel free to check out the other pages and fill out a membership application while you're there.

Cleburne Passenger Cars
tnold@northtexastransport.org

The wood construction, vestibules and "Empire" style ceiling say 1900-10 era to me. The red paint where the service date is painted would indicate either work car or mixed train service.

Some Santa Fe 1100 series coaches got steel plating on the sides and, I'm told, lasted to be scraped about 1960.

Decided to get out the book on Santa Fe mixed train cars (Caboose, Cabbage & Caboose by John B. McCall). This book has lists of different groups of these cars with their back history. In these lists there were mixed train combines rebuilt from these cars: Santa Fe Chair Car 1102 was built by Pullman in 1905, 1121 in 1907, GC&SF 1161 in 1901, 1107 in 1907, 1119 in 1907, 1111 in 1907, 1104 in 1905

Hope this helps.

Brian Norden


bnorden49@earthlink.net

> The wood construction, vestibules and
> "Empire" style ceiling say 1900-10
> era to me.

Loverly ...I wonder if the ceilings are original "paris green" paint ... the verdant green was achieved with arsenic salts ...just some else to check.

lamontdc@adelphia.net

Gents, this car apears to share many detals in common with the former C of G first class partitioned car stored inserviceable at Eureka Springs, AR. I don't have the file on that car handy, but given the G C & SF stencil, I wouldn't be surprised if the cars were from a southeastern shortline.

If I recall correctly, the car it is like was built in the 1890s, but as a first class partitioned car it was longer. It shared the cross vaulted lights in the clerestory, and the wood trim details definitely ring a bell.

dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

Dunno, the more I think about it the less I like the idea. Wish I had the operative file handy. Why would the cars go to GA from TX and back again?

Did GC&SF buy used coaches? Don't know anything about that road.

Dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

> I am processing the pictures of the two
> "Confederate Railroad" Cars near
> Cleburne, Texas. They are not interurban
> cars and they do in fact appear to be old
> wood passenger cars. I do not believe they
> have been sitting in the barn for over 100
> years old because above the bolster is
> stenciled "Repacked - G.C.S.F.RY GA. -
> 1 14 40". The cars are probably
> pre-1900. They are short - approximately 40'
> long by 10' wide.

> The farm was owned by a "higher
> up" railroad employee/official who
> worked at the Cleburne shops (this was not a
> common laborer's ranch). I am from the
> electric side of railroading, so some of you
> will have to help me interpret the pictures,
> but these are very interesting cars. I will
> post the link to the pictures around 10:30pm
> central time.

> Andy Nold
> NTHT, Inc.

Is this possibly the G.C.S.F. that we're looking for?


http://www.atsfry.com/1900s/Grhc.htm
william.herbert@gsa.gov

> I don't have the file on
> that car handy, but given the G C & SF
> stencil, I wouldn't be surprised if the cars
> were from a southeastern shortline.

Dave -

I just assumed that "GC&SF" was something like "Gulf Coast & Santa Fe" or "Galveston, Cleburne & Santa Fe" and that "GA" was "Galveston."

We're back to that Texas requirement that any railroad operating in the state had to be headquartered there, but I have no idea what the AT&SF subsidiary was.

Steve Patterson had an article in TRAINS earlier this year about working on AT&SF in the area, but I don't recall any predecessor information.

JAC

A quick search of the internet reveals that the GC&SF is The Gulf, Colorado & Santa Fe. The GA is probably the ID for the rip track which did the repack.

http://765.org
nkpshop@aol.com

If it was not original, it was a well done job. Are you familiar with any coaches that had screen doors on the vestibule?

Cleburne Passenger Cars
tnold@northtexastransport.org

The stencil with the repack date shows it was a Gulf Colorado & Santa Fe car, likely repacked at Gainesville, TX. Gainesville was on the Second Division (which extended from Gainesville through Ft. Worth to Cleburne) and did have a roundhouse, turntable and significant yard. Cleburne was home to the general shops of the GC&SF and it's likely these cars were built, if not rebuilt there in the in-house coach shop. But it wasn't repacked there - that would be CY.

Age of Steam Railroad Museum
bkroger@earthlink.net

> ...I do not believe they
> have been sitting in the barn for over 100
> years old because above the bolster is
> stenciled "Repacked - G.C.S.F.RY GA. -
> 1 14 40"...

Aw, Andy - it could mean 1840... ;-)

tr2manz@frontiernet.net

Yeah John, too bad it wasn't GASF or something....

If nobody comes up with comparable stuff I will try to dig out the file on the similar car and get a builder and date when I get back to GA.

Dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

After looking at the photographs, I have to conclude that the cars are definately post Civil War, probably by ten to fifteen years. The Civil War era cars would have either had a flat roof or a monitor type roof with air vents at each end of the car. The fact that these cars have vestibules is also a big red flag since they did not appear as common features until at least ten years after the war.

As for the screen door, that's definately an add on. The only railroad cars that I know of that had screen doors were camp cars used in wreck service or maintenance of way duties. Most cars had wood end doors that had a split glass window. The split could be either vertical or horizontal. For example, the Western and Atlantic Railroad of Georgia had cars that had horizontal split glass windows with the top portion having a curved cut and acid etching.

awalker2002@comcast.net