I respectfully disagree with your opinion John. I was asking to volunteer a few hours of my Saturday afternoons to paint and possibly clean the grounds, not life long employment. A 16 year old in high school can help with plenty, just ask the museums out west how they do their work with local school kids. Similar to what Otto said there is an "old boys club" feeling in many museums and its becoming detrimental to progress as the years go on. We've had some very dedicated members of our own die in the last few years and little to catch on, it's a serious problem.

You missed a couple of categories:

The User, he uses his membership of the Museum to further his own agenda, which can sometimes include running for public office. In which case the museum can somehow become part of his Constituent Services, to the detriment of the museum.

The Messiah, powerful personality, lots of bright new ideas, really shakes thing up, and who then just disappears after his doctor changes his meds.

-Hudson

Wow, you all have way too much free time on your hands to be writing these lengthy posts about "railfans" versus "museums". Don't you all have some paint to scrape someplace ?

I am a lifelong "railfan" staring when my Father took me for a ride on the remnants of the Empire State Express (by then, circa 1963, downgraded to a numbered train) while he was the Engineer. I like to ride on trains and watch them, and I was a volunteer at a railroad museum doing preservation activities funded with my own dollars. I don't see a conflict there at all. I never stopped anyone from their preservation activities, and I never expected anyone to fund mine (I did gratefully accept kind offers of assistance).

When exactly did a "railfan" stop a museum from doing anything ???? And where is it written that "railfans" MUST support a museum ???? I guess I missed all of that over the last few decades.

People do what they enjoy, a simple truth is you can't force them to fund the things you enjoy. Any activity in life attracts criticism, some folks learn from the criticism, other folks whine about the criticizer.

If you want folks to support your efforts in any field of activity you should try respect, courtesy, professional behavior and appreciation.

Or, you could do as the OP did and "declare" a non existent "rage" between two groups that "like" different activities.

Ponderous lengthy post with few constructive things to add to anybody's activities.

Cheers, Kevin

"Many railfans won’t even bother with museums and preservation. To some, the railroading portrayed is “fake,”"

In the early to mid 1930's two bothers were working in the Central Railroad of New Jersey's Penobscot Yard, one a brakeman, the older a switch tender. A few minutes before the younger brother's (George) quitting time; he slipped off the top of a boxcar. Shortly thereafter the management told the other brother (John) to go home and get some sheets, (the family home, was in walking distance on Gracedale Avenue)
because something happened to George. Indeed something did-George slipped in between two cars and was cut in half-at a transverse angle.

Over the years, John continued to work for the railroad-when he could-as a man who quit formal education before completing high school-his options were mining and railroading. When "laid off" from the railroad, he worked in the mines, and for a while, on a CCC road construction project, where he came home caked with sweat and red stone dust. By the 1940's work was steady and plentiful, until the end of World War II, when the foreman informed the crew that he had to either cut them back a day, or let the guy with the least seniority go. One quipped "I can't live on half a loaf", and they allowed their "brother" to go with none.

Later, Penobscot was largely closed as it was rendered unnecessary by the closure of the Ashley Planes after the CNJ replaced its chunky Mikados with F3's. John then used his seniority to transfer to Ashley, but then his job there was lost as well. Off to Allentown he went-hitchiking the 70 or so miles every week and staying with a generous friend who gave him room and board for a reasonable price.

By the late 1950's, years of smoking, anthracite and red stone dust took their toll. John had a supervisory job and a couple of heart attacks and emphysema , and he maintained the job because his employees and coworkers eased the physical burden of walking around the yard as best they could.

By the 7th of July 1962, John was just short of his 53rd birthday, with his children grown,
one infant grandson (me) and a granddaughter (my late cousin) on the way. Each breath was now a titanic effort. He was drowning in the air and would die a few days later.

That was railroading, and no museum every presents the "nasty, brutish and short" lives of the men who neither sat in railroad boardrooms or the right seat of locomotives.

Somehow I think Jack Nicholson saying "you can't handle the truth" might be the appropriate answer-the very best museum is but a few snippets of "real railroading".

These are all good points with a lot of thought and experience behind them.

I retired a couple of years ago after fifty years of railroad service, generally switching cars running engines and teaching new hires how to do both. I also spent some time in management so I have seen both "sides" of railroading but my strength is teaching the operating and safety rules using multiple, true, stories to illustrate why rules compliance is required. I also have been involved with a few museums over the years having owned a caboose leased to one and having handled off museum, railroad excursions for others.

Now retired, I handle the annual rules class for one well known, railroad/museum operation and the first thing I do when I begin the class is to thank the volunteers for their work and participation. I then go on to explain that while this can be a fun and exciting experience it is a dangerous one which requires full attention to the operating and safety rules in order to stay safe and allow continued operation and growth of the railroad/museum.

I start the class this way because I feel that many museums don't take enough time to thank their volunteers and give them regular "pats on the back". This is why I enjoy riding with the crews when I can, to observe them carrying out their duties in a safe and friendly way exactly the way I did it on the railroads I worked for. If there was need for correction it was done in a "gentlemen's" manner and not personal or vindictive but educational and supportive while still insisting on compliance.

While this has been sucessful at this museum others which I have contacted to provide the same service, gratis, with exception of travel expense, have been friendly but pretty much told me they had their own rules program and were quite happy with it not even wanting to understand my teaching techniques or power points. With quite a little retirement time on my hands it would be nice to have other opportunities to share my years of experience.

I believe that many museum operations could benefit from more appreciation of it's volunteers while at the same time carefully, guiding them safely through their duties. This would help insure a growing and enthusiastic volunteer force into the future.

exprail

I can only speak from my experience at one museum (Shelburne Falls Trolley Museum, MA) and from my perspective as an "insider". I think Otto, whose work and writing I enjoy and respect, has co-mingled the railfan v general public issue and the insider v outsider issue. Both have some relevance but they are not the same. I also think the label 'railfan' is fraught with issues, as are most attempts to group people by one parameter. (I'm a railfan, sounds like Howard P. is too. If you, dear reader, aren't a railfan, how do you describe your interest in railroads?) I think it is one thing to say that a certain person is a railfan, it is quite a different thing to lump railfans into a group and ascribe to them certain behaviors. And I realize that Otto was trying to present two perspectives and that the opposing views he expressed can't both be his.

SFTM's insiders are both railfans and 'others'. If no one on our board were interested in railroads, I don't think we'd exist. But I do look for directors who have other interests as well, since we need to reach people who aren't much interested in railroads to be able to fulfill our mission, and to stay afloat financially.

Some of our volunteers (directors and crew-members) can tell you everything you want to know about a narrow field of railroading, some know a bit about railroads rather broadly, some are retired railroaders, some are more interested in general history, and some know very little about railroads and just want to help a community-based organization (but they are learning about trolleys and local railroads, mission accomplished!). I consider our volunteers to be 'insiders' as well, they are invited to every board meeting. Sometimes the social-media active ones are asked to keep certain details quiet until a deal is completed.
Some details of some transactions are kept even from me, to protect the wishes of anonymous donors. I know some of our best financial supporters are railfans.

I also know that railfans alone will not keep us afloat. Many are only interested in modern railroading, and therefore their interests have little overlap with preservation.

I have answered a "When are you gonna.." question with "When someone writes a check." And I tend to be a bit dismissive of the "You guys outta.." suggestions. I'm sorry if that drives folks away, but I think anyone who finds that hard to deal with won't have the persistence to make a good volunteer anyway. We do work very hard with the folks who do show an interest to keep them engaged.

Yes, I could be scraping paint, but I've been doing that for days. This is my 'break' at home, now to get back to getting the museum's newsletter out.

I have worked at several "professional" railway museums, both as a paid employee and a volunteer. In every case, there were people I worked with who were not railfans. Their work at the museum was a paycheck, not a passion. I also worked on several railroads with people in that same cohort. In both cases, those individuals did their jobs, but they had no interest in the history of the equipment or in railroads in general beyond what they had to know to perform their jobs. I always felt that they performed those jobs adequately, but they might have enjoyed them more if they could get excited about what they were doing.

I identify myself as a railfan, but I have found over the years that my interests have narrowed in more ways than one. I worked my way through college at a trolley museum and spent nearly 20 years working in management on several shortline railroads. Through it all, I have been a volunteer at several tourist railroads and steam operations. I used to take a lot of photos, but in recent years, my efforts have only been to document work I've been involved in. I don't have a whole lot of interest in the contemporary railroad scene.

I've served on a couple of Boards of Directors, where I think I was nominated because of my restoration shop experience and not because I could bring in the big bucks. I've heard my share of the "whynchas.." as in "Why don't you do this or that?" and the "You shoulds.." as well. I'm immune to those folks. I listen politely and then go about my business.

Cameron,
Since it is very much a local jurisdictional issue I can only tell you that in the State of Wisconsin volunteers are considered unpaid employees and as such the museums must adhere to local child labor regulations. This legally precludes us from allowing younger folks from doing much of anything. Yes, it can be used as a bludgeon but at least here it is a real concern.

You had written in your post that the other museum had later "changed their policy". If they were able to do that without running afoul of regulations that only proves the point of local jurisdictional rule.

mld

Just for comparison, here are the Indiana child labor rules. I wonder how other states compare.

TEEN WORK HOURS
Indiana Department of Labor – Bureau of Child Labor
402 W. Washington Street Room W195
Indianapolis, IN 46204

Notice: employers of minors who are 14, 15, 16 or 17 years of age are required by law to post the maximum
number of hours these minors may be employed or permitted to work in each day of the week. The information
must be posted in a conspicuous place or in places where notices are customarily posted. For additional copies of
this form or for further information contact this office.

AGES 14 and 15 AGE 16
Restricted to: Restricted to:
- 3 hours per school day - 8 hours per school day
- 8 hours per non-school day - 9 hours per day not followed by a school day*
- 18 hours per school week - 30 hours per week
- 40 hours per non-school week - 40 hours per school week*
- No work before 7:00 a.m. or after 7:00 p.m. - 48 hours per non-school week*
(except 9:00 p.m. June 1 through Labor Day) - No more than 6 working days per week
- No work before 6:00 a.m.
- Work until 10:00 p.m. on nights

AGE 17 followed by a school day
- 8 hours per day - Work until 12:00 a.m. on nights NOT
- 9 hours per day not followed by a school day* followed by a school day*
- 30 hours per week
- 40 hours per school week*
- 48 hours per non-school week*
- No more than 6 working days per week
- No work before 6:00 a.m. on school days
- Until 10:00 p.m. on nights followed by a school day
- Until 11:30 p.m. on nights followed by a school day*
- Until 1:00 a.m. on nights followed by a school day, but not on consecutive nights and not more than
two school nights per week*
*requires written parental permission on file with employer at location where minor is employed

TEEN BREAK LAW: As a worker under the age of 18, you must receive one or two breaks totaling 30
minutes when you are scheduled to work 6 or more consecutive hours.
16 or 17 year olds may not be employed or permitted to work on a school day after 7:30 a.m. and before
3:30 p.m. unless the employer has on file a written exception issued by the school that the minor attends.
16 or 17 year olds who have withdrawn or graduated from high school are not subject to the hour
restrictions listed above.
As worker under the age of 18 you must be accompanied by a coworker who is at least 18 years of age
when working after 10:00 p.m. and before 6:00 a.m. in an establishment that is open to the public.

I would suggest that for minors that are prohibited by age from actually working on projects, that perhaps some type of educational program could be used to help develop and maintain the interest of those too young to actually participate. I would say that any state that would prevent minors from the ages of say 12-18 from participating at non-profit museums is completely missing the forest for the trees and should be ashamed of themselves for such fuzzy logic.

For a start, look at the list of equipment and occupations forbidden to people under age 18 by Federal law.

https://www.youthrules.gov/know-the-limits/hazards/index.htm

Whether volunteering in a museum shop can be considered an "occupation" is not (IMHO) relevant -- the intent of the law is that these activities are hazardous and persons under 18 should not do them.

Al Stangenberger
Shop Superintendent
Western Railway Museum

Well I'm sure some things have changed. I went into the workforce at age 16 in 1984, and probably did half of those things on the job by the time I turned 18. Other than mining, I did most of the rest when I was off the job. When I was 16, I was employed delivering parts around town, driving a forklift, building hose assemblies with a hydraulic crimper, making conveyor belts and other industrial tasks. When I was 17, I was working in a transmission shop putting cars up on hoists, and using all sorts of torches and power tools. Off the job, by 18 I had performed all types of construction work, farm work, and land clearing. Maybe that's why so many of the young people I come into contact with can barely walk and chew gum at the same time, and have zero technical skills. . We never let them DO anything....... We think we are helping these kids, but we're not.

This thread went in an interesting direction...

We (train people) are too small a community to warrant individual pens at the stockyard. We're all breathing in each other's methane, stepping in our own manure and heading down the same trough. Wether you have a staybolt or a Nikon in your hand, there's no one waiting with a medal.

Why pretend otherwise?

If we are going to judge each other by labels and come up with litmus tests for who is better than whom, we're already screwed. Pretty soon all the Sneetches will want stars upon thars.

Rob

PS: My favorite tale of railroad tribalism comes from a local model club whose layout features extensive steam road and interurban modeling. One visit, I was stunned to see that someone had taken the time to carefully turn every trolley, freight motor and associated electric model on it's side. When I asked why, one of the "steam" guys said it was because the trolley guys are dorks. I looked it him and (with every one of my hundreds of rail-addicted friends in mind) asked, "aren't we're all dorks?"

PPS: To Otto's question, I find "railfans" quite open to supporting equipment acquisition and restoration campaigns when said campaigns are unique, well presented and the goals are quite clear.

Edited for clarity...

Exactly. About 10 years ago a museum near me made a donation campaign among members for the restoration of a steam locomotive. I'm not sure how much was ever raised (it was never made public but I know that many members did donate towards it). When the museum got a new president, he turned his focus on other pieces of equipment and said locomotive is sitting outside looking pretty bad. I'm certain enough money was raised to give the locomotive a decent cosmetic restoration and some nice signage... but anytime I bring the locomotive up I'm told that it's not an important piece of the collection or "why don't I pick up a paint brush."

But then the same museum questions why people don't donate more money to their current campaigns?