There were a lot of factors that went into the decision to close the Kettle Moraine Railway. The development of the surrounding countryside was a part of it but not all of it.

It's been oven tens years ago but a better case study is the Stillwater and St. Paul RR that was owned by the Minnesota Transportation Museum. A large number of NIMBY's had built houses around the line and when complaints started to flow the "tough beans" argument was given. The Museum ended up selling the trackage to a dinner train that had an lease to run on the line and the MTM took their roadshow elsewhere.

There is no answer to this problem as no one is able to predict the population trends. But it does need to be considered in long range planning. I realize that this too requires large sums of money but we need to look forward to a "ideal" future.

So I pose the question. How many museums have plans to acquire a buffer zone around their operations by purchace or other device?

> John,
> maybe I am a little "intemporate", as it were . . .

Now Brother Jim, did I say that was a BAD thing? (Just a little play on your name, thassall . . . )

I hear you. I agree with you. And as someone who spends far too much time lobbying city council folk and dealing with know-little, care-less bureaucrats, I know what it's like to lose a battle close to home. Literally.

And if the lawsuit wasn't filed by the borough, then a lot of what I said doesn't hold. (Hey, it was in the paper - we all know newspapers never slant stories or make mistakes . . . right?) But if this time the city is a plaintiff, well, things could turn out very differently indeed.

JAC

oh, yeah - I may not be young anymore, but I am an urban professional, so . . . ouch . . . and maybe leave us MAUPPIES outta things?

;-)

As I was told by those who owned the railroad, they were offered a very good price for what wasn't making them rich as an operating tourist railroad and sold. The aging of the founders was a consideration as well, and other opportunities which the operating principals could pursue.

KMRR didn't fold up thanks to NIMBYs - they had some, sure, but the real picture had more elements in it than that.

BTW, the enginehouse and yard is reopening as a railroad restoration / obsolete rusty iron machine shop soon.

dave



irondave@bellsouth.net

Obviously I was never told the whole KM story.
Thanks for clearing it up.
Also, glad to hear the site isn't totally lost.

Boyd

bowens@rypn.org

Urban encroachment is something most of the museums need to be concerned about. Here in New Jersey it is truly a problem. If we run at night now, we usually warn the local police department as we have houses less than a half mile from our operation. The farms have since given way to $600,000 houses. They tend to be customers so we try to take care of them.

Locally, farm markets have come under attack and many closed down due to traffic concerns and building codes. Urbanites now living adjacent to the farms also took issue with the smell of the fertilizer.

Have any of you heard of The Tiger Lady? Out in the middle of NJ, the middle of nowhere, she kept about 20 tigers as pets. She is now being closed down after many lawsuits by her new neighbors.

I'm waiting for our local race track (Wall Stadium) to come under attack. It has been in operation since the 1950s.

Anyone been to the 120 year old Bayhead Junction lately? Notice the $500,000 houses all around the loop? NJ Transit has been under attack for several years now due to noise and polution at the site.

The point I'm making is that its not just railroad museums and tourist lines coming under attack. Its everywhere.

J.R.

> It was very late last night when I posted
> the Briefs, but the lead story about the New
> Hope lawsuit kept me up a little later as I
> tried to go to sleep.

> I know NIMBY complaints about tourist lines
> are nothing new. The Blue Mountaiun &
> Reading had some issues in Temple, PA and
> Steamtown had some problems when they were
> running on the D&H out of Hyde Park.
> Both were complaints about smoke, I believe.

> But this suit is different. Not only does it
> go after what most of us would consider
> normal operations, it also attacks the
> visual impact of unrestored equipment and
> the operations of the shop.

> Yes, there is a lot of surface anger when I
> read something like this. New Hope's
> development as a tourist draw is party
> because of the railroad. The evolution into
> a high-priced weekend escape and a retreat
> for artists and alternative lifestyle
> communities has turned it into a very unique
> town. For the most part, these new arrivals
> don't remember when New Hope needed the
> railroad to draw visitors.

> Beneath the anger, I fear this is a clear
> warning shot that people do not always see
> things through the cinder-covered goggles
> that we do.

> I'd be interested to hear what efforts your
> groups have made to build relationships with
> local burgs and their residents. It seems
> the only way to avoid these kinds of
> lawsuits is to build strong relationships
> that preclude them.

> What do you think?

> Rob Davis


http://www.njmt.org
jrmay@njmt.org

I can share in everyones frustration. I volunteered on the West Virginia Northern. It ran for over 90 years before taking a 2-3 year rest before it became a tourist railroad.

Would you believe that we STILL had to have an environmental impact study done? We were still using 2 of the three original diesel locos, not hauling coal or any other freight, and only about 4 or 5 cars rather than the 30 or whatever the WVN used to string over the mountains...in sections.

There was a 1/2 mile stretch from the shops up into Kingwood proper. Our main station was at the end of that stretch. The locals got their panties all in a bind, and several years, and many dead presidents on paper later, the railroad lost, and of course is now closed. Should we have just given up and used all that money to rebuild track, etc? Possibly. Either way, it was a good ride and I miss it along with some of the people I worked with who I thankfully still hear from or see once in a while.

The same thing is happening to the Western Maryland Scenic. people are building houses along the ROW. Then, they gasp that...HEY! They still run trains on that. Too bad it is cost prohibitive to own 100 ft. on each side of the rail head minimum. I applaud WMS and others who have managed to keep going, ESPECIALLY with steam.

Mark

bbjimbo@yahoo.com

I must say this really shows what people living in sin can do. They bring down that town but anway. Why would you do this to the biggest tourist attraction in the area? Peddlers Village is noting with out the railroad and also if anyone has not mentioned all the equipment to be restored track is out of view of the town folk it is at the end of a private road what do they get up on a chery picker to see that? they better not get rid of Long Island Railroad Palor # 2004 the "Syosset" it would be a shame to looses her wait all the antique shops are an eye sore and all the people living in sin are an eye sore get rid of them they are a mess not the cars and i dont meant to be a biggot but you know what the rr was there first not them. Same old Liberal Losers everwhere. That is why we should support the town of Doyelstown buy nothing in New Hope have an embargo on their stores just like the state does on the french

BEDT15@aol.com

You think you're bitter now, try being born in 1951 and watching ETTS. They are all right, the only way you can ever win is to: A. Have a weinie roast with the equipment and laugh when they sue you for pollution violations, or B. Learn somehow to get along with them. The latest chapter in NIMBY/Political Correctness is a book called The Language Police, written by a teacher in her late 50s who has sat on state boards for textbook approvals. The best one I heard was the school board member who complained about a passage in a textbook referring to an ice storm, as being disturbing to children as it showed "regional bias". The cities that have put light rail back in. How do they do it? The folks at IRM have the right idea. As the farmers owning land around the museum die and sell off, IRM buys the land to an ever-expanding buffer zone between itself and the urban sprawl just around the corner. Expensive, but effective!

HJebone, Illini Railroad Club Alum and Never a Yuppie

> The problem is the country is overrun with
> self centered, over incomed Yuppies who
> beleive that the universe revolves around
> their desire du jour. We had here a Farm
> Museum with one of the premier displays of
> agricultural history in North Texas. The
> land upon which it sits was donated to the
> county for that express purpose. The soccer
> moms and others have hijacked county
> government here and now the place is being
> turned into a HUGE soccer sports complex,
> the restored farm machery has been moved
> outside of its display building, replaced by
> field maintenence machinery.

> Now they have decided that the vintage
> machinery is an eyesore, and they are trying
> to figure out what to do with it.

> The late baby boomers and gen X yuppies are
> a scourge that are only concerned about
> themselves and their possessions. And if you
> think this is some angry old coot on a
> tirade, I am 34 and disgusted.


sbs5cats@kc.rr.com

1. Get used to it, it's the new way of life
2. Get your lawyer busy and find out what your rights are.
3. Get involved in the community, maybe you can nip these things in the bud. Get involved before they get involved.

Welcome to Ohio:
1. No money for roads but they can build noise barriers next to the freeway where a developer bought cheap farm land and sold $500,000 homes, walked away with the money and the taxpayers will pay to correct this.
2. Where the sheriff comes out at night and stops farmers from planting or harvesting. Complaints rate more then a farmer trying to get his crops in or out while the weather holds.
3. Pig poop stinks, period. Never check out the neighborhood before you build your house.
4. Believe the real estate agent when he tells you the Railroad at the corner is gonna be converted to a bike trail.

And the beat goes on ... why do I know it's gonna get worse before it gets better ???


lamontdc@adelphia.net

> As I was told by those who owned the
> railroad, they were offered a very good
> price for what wasn't making them rich as an
> operating tourist railroad and sold. The
> aging of the founders was a consideration as
> well, and other opportunities which the
> operating principals could pursue.

> KMRR didn't fold up thanks to NIMBYs - they
> had some, sure, but the real picture had
> more elements in it than that.

> BTW, the enginehouse and yard is reopening
> as a railroad restoration / obsolete rusty
> iron machine shop soon.

> dave

Didn't the Kettle Moraine retain a short section of track up to their river crossing and perhaps a bit beyond? This is (was) the most scenic part of the line; through a wooded area. Any chance that the "new" KM will provide a run over this section of track with a diesel, or perhaps even a smaller steamer? Would be another reason for folks to visit.


midlandblb@cs.com

The sad thing is that many who file lawsuits like this have far more money than sense. The Smoky Hill group in Belton, Missouri was sued by a local real estate developer several years back. They even hired a former Frisco attorney who specialized in land issues as this was former Frisco track.

Even though the group won at every court level, the real estate maggot kept coming back on appeal. The suit drug on for years and forced the group to sell several miles of right of way between Belton and Harrisonville, Mo to pay their legal fees.

In the end the developer went away. Of course the land this clown really wanted was sold by the railroad to pay legal fees in the end.

ALso wondering what the rest of the story is in Pennsylvania?

jimhollis@ev1.net

Some comments which may only apply to
Pennsylvania common carriers (NHRR is one).
Local zoning restrictions and property taxes
don't apply to railroads. The Public Utility
Commission has some juristiction, like about
changes to the railroad. Public utilities pay
a "Public Utility Real (estate) Tax Act" (PURTA)
tax to the state, which splits it among the
locals. (I don't know what relation it has to
the value of the railroad land for yuppie
purposes.)
Railroad land that is not part of the "railroad"
is not covered by the above exceptions. In
NHRR's case, that's some of the extra land near
some of the station sites (Johnsville, for
instance, but NOT New Hope!) I think there were
3 or 4 different parcels.
Note that the execeptions stop applying if the
railroad stops opperation on some land, and
especially if it demonstrates that fact by
selling it. The local government does have the
weapon of threatening to reduce a possible
windfall if the railroad sells out by changing
the zoning first!
Just before ConRail, residents of the City of
Philadelphia complained with most of these same
arguments about Reading Company diesels idling
all night long along Lehigh Ave. East of
Frankford Avenue in Kennsington. They didn't get
far, but Rdg. did move some opperations to other
yards like Lansdale.
County and local elections are Tues. May 20. Stay
tuned for the results!

TyburnRR@cs.com

I "love" seeing how many posts it takes for us to get off of the topic proposed by the original poster--this one seemed to be gone with the first response.

THE TOPIC AS ORIGINALLY STATED BY MR DAVIS WAS...

> I'd be interested to hear what efforts your
> groups have made to build relationships with
> local burgs and their residents. It seems
> the only way to avoid these kinds of
> lawsuits is to build strong relationships
> that preclude them.

> What do you think?

The economy of Wasatch County was fading in the mid sixties. The sheep were long gone. Milk prices weren't good. Many residents were commuting down to (amoung other places) Geneva Steel in Utah County to find work. A group of railfans, including Mr. Ashton started the Private Tourist Railroad known in different re-incarnations as The Heber Creeper, Wasatch Mountain Railway, etc. Finally, in 1989, unable to pull off a third reorganizational bankruptcy, the line was declared broke and the assets (whether they were his or not) were sold off to satisfy creditors.

The county was really hurting in the early 90's when a group from the city/county approached the state legislature requesting an economic development grant to get the railroad started again. The legislature said "here's 3/4 of the amount you've requested, it's all you're goin' to get...go away and don't come back!"

For us the important fact has been the support of the city and county. They wanted the railroad. Most of our board of directors are involved from the community. Growth along the Wasatch Front (the Salt Lake City side of the mountain range) has pushed over the mountains through Park City and now over the ridges to Heber Valley. Real estate development is occuring along the ROW down to Soldier Hallow and the county has required every developer to state in their contracts that the buyer is aware of the proximity of the railroad to their lot and that we run stinky diesels and sooty steam engines.

What do we do to help relations?

Hopefully, give all of our patrons a memorable experience because if they enjoy their ride on the train, they might just decide to stick around and get dinner at an eatery in town or even spend the night at the Holiday Inn or other establishment in town. On the other hand if we run late, put 'out of order' signs on the train restrooms, have the coke machine breakdown, (you get the picture)--then they just want to get back to the parking lot, get the kids in the car and get back home or back on the road with no additional time (or dollars) in the community.

We sponsor a couple of reduced fare or no fare trains a year for just the community. Some of these may be 'dress rehersal' trains for the Haunted Canyon or Polar Express. At Christmas there will be a special Santa Train for the needy in the community.

We support local businesses. Our printing is done by the local newspaper. We buy tires for our vehicles at local tire stores. We patronize the local hardware stores instead of running to one of the 'big box' stores on the other side of the mountain every time.

We participate in community functions--running our CMO's rubber-tired parking lot train in parades. We'll tie in with local celebrations and festivals giving their organizers something more to offer with their event (i.e. a cowboy poetry train when the cowboy poetry festival comes to town).

We make every effort to be courteous to our immediate neighbors by taking the small lane crossings with extra caution after dark. "Muting" the horn after 9:00pm with no horn/bell in the yard (strictly hand/lantern or radio communication) after 9:00pm. Minimizing late night train movements--"just cutoff and get your engine over to the shop" is a typical direction from the dispatcher (after the potty dump).

--just some of the things we try to do.

'doc'

Heber Valley Railroad
utweyesguy@aol.com

It goes deeper than just railroads. I work in the field of industrial automation and my work takes me to power plants, auto assembly plants, food processing plants, etc. Every year my customer list grows smaller. One local town (Lodi, NJ) had its mayor say his goal was to drive every manufacturing company either out of town or out of business! I have friends who sneer at buying American products because after all they "are always inferior and pollute the environment!" (Yeah, because everyone knows how environmentally careful they are in China!).

We live in a country that has contempt for those who manufacture things or produce something tangible. Of course, over the course of a few decades this will be the end of us. I hope either attitudes do a 180 or the coming doom holds off until after my lifetime.

tstuy@eldcps.org

Les, not speaking for anybody involved there but my understanding is that running a private machine shop doesn't require visitors, and in fact visitors can interrupt profitable work in progress. I wouldn't expect any operation other than testing of repair jobs, but who knows what might occur in the future.

dave

irondave@bellsouth.net