When we bought our land for our industrial museum a couple of years ago I thought that it might be in a bad location because its not in the vicinity of the other cultural institutions in town, but rather in a light industrial area. After reading about all these NIMBY problems, I am feeling much better about where we reside.

Our neighbors consist of a warehouse, private prison, truck repair shops, sign company and a car junk yard. So I can fire up a boiler or blow my whistles and there is nobody around to say squat about it.

I'm also looking in the long term to continue to buy property around me. For expansion and also for buffer zones.

Youngstown is a depressed post industrial town and we have more pressing concerns like keeping bullets from flying through the air that we don't worry too much about if that air smells like coal smoke.

But don't let that dissuade you from visiting one of the largest Corliss engines in the world when we get the museum open!

Tod Engine Foundation
rick@todengine.org

Our national interpretation of the industrial revolution arrived just in time for us to use its fruits to develop national resources, populate a frontier, and build what is still arguably the strongest world economy. It gave us the brawn to redraw the world map by winning two world wars and shrink the globe and begin to explore space.

Why are we ashamed of it now and why do we seek more to hide it and forget it than celebrate it?

The British are light years ahead of the USA in industrial preservation. Tourists from the USA frequently visit industrial preservation sites in the UK. Are we not as interested in what our grandfathers did as what grandfathers did in other countries?

I was born in a steel mill neighborhood on the south side of Pittsburgh in the Monongahela valley. The mill was the basis of our economy. When the mill shut down so did the community surrounding it. The soot and dust from the mill was referred to locally as "Gold Dust" even as we swept it from our stoops and our windshields, and hung our clean laundry in the basement to dry.

I still am not sure that air which is invisible is still there to be breathed, and there is something positively unhealthy about pale white snow.......

Given my background it puzzles me that we have as a nation chosen to give away our national industrial base to other countries whom we now depend on to supply us with basic needs. I also don't know how this part of history / social studies / economics is taught in schools today, and how that may contribute to this lack of understanding.

Any ideas?

dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

I'm going to be a bit a bit rabid here, so if I needed to be reeled back in Erik, tell to me to shut my trap.

Much of the answer lies, IMHO, in where we have put our priorities in education and in our newer "growth economies." Envirnomentalism may play into it too, but the fact remains that we as a nation seem to look down upon what built this nation, and that is blue-collar-based work.

Starting in the years after World War II, everything was about getting a better education so that your kid could go to college and have a better life. I include the mom-and-pop's in this as well; from the bakery or men's store owner to the car-knocker and machinist, these guys saw education (school books, not hands-on) as the way to improve their kids lives. Arguably, it grew out of the depression; often, those with education (book smarts) could get SOME kind of job when others couldn't. It became so deeply entrenched that before World War II Ended we already had a G.I. bill setup for educating those masses of guys who were already buying into that mentality. Being a lawyer, educator, banker, etc was an improvement; being a automatic screw-machine operator (like my grandfather) was not.

Part of it also may have been that guys wanted something different after five years of war. I often think of my grandfather; after the war, he went back to the EXACT SAME MACHINE he had worked on three years before. He had been to Italy, France, Morocco, Spain, England, and a bunch of other areas, expanded his horizons, fought for his country, watched guys his same age get slaughtered, and yet he goes back to the blue collar version of the "man in the grey flannel suit."

Like most of my parent's generation, my dad was the first to graduate from college. He worked for a time doing the same thing my grandfather had done; and quickly decided it wasn't for him. On the other hand, he became another dying breed: a independent businessman, staring his own men's store, until "the mall-omatic" mentality put him out of his business. I still cringe at gaps, where teeny-boppers who don't have an i.q. much above their shoe size stand there while I look through the rack. My dad can tell a person's measurements just by looking at them. You don't learn that kind of knowledge out of books.

After all this negativity, there are some bright spots, though. It started , ironically I think, with the same baby-boomers who shunned the job of their parents. They realize that the 9-5 whitye collar grind does nothing but put you in an early grave, and puts your soul there even quicker. Guys like Dave, Marty and, well, most of the people who post here who realize that making money, while important, ain't the end all be all of life. You can't take it with you when your dead, and what to show that you were ever here? But if you PRESERVE something, if your effort is the reason that your great-grandchild get's to see a steam locomotive in operation, well, thats a little thing I like to call LEGACY.

I've seen it in a small part of my generation, too (and yes, I can readily hear the "hmpfs" in disapproving disgust). There is a wondering, a carnal need if you will, to do SOMETHING, learn SOMETHING that is done with your hands besides typing on a computer. Right now, I'm working with two guys twice my age to re-build a 44-foot sailboat built in Sweden in 1934. I've spent this morning pulling planks off her keel to use as patterns for new Honduran Mahogany (PLEASE don't ask what you pay for 3/4 inch/ 5/4 boards lengths these days) and have spent most of my Spring free time (when not raising a family) stripping a 40-year old Fiberglass job some previous owner put on her to make it "easier" to work on. Whatever. What i've learned so far: 1.) NEVER put a dead object over a living one 2.) If its wood, we can fix it! 3.) That there's nothing better for the soul than wood working (unless its maybe steel or iron work). There's others out there like me; not a lot yet, but I see those out there who are willing to try and resurrect what's been lost. My son already wants to see what his dead is doing, and although having your three-year-old in the vicinty of red-lead and fiberglass is not recommended, getting them interested in something like that is!

TJG

> Our national interpretation of the
> industrial revolution arrived just in time
> for us to use its fruits to develop national
> resources, populate a frontier, and build
> what is still arguably the strongest world
> economy. It gave us the brawn to redraw the
> world map by winning two world wars and
> shrink the globe and begin to explore space.

> Why are we ashamed of it now and why do we
> seek more to hide it and forget it than
> celebrate it?

> The British are light years ahead of the USA
> in industrial preservation. Tourists from
> the USA frequently visit industrial
> preservation sites in the UK. Are we not as
> interested in what our grandfathers did as
> what grandfathers did in other countries?

> I was born in a steel mill neighborhood on
> the south side of Pittsburgh in the
> Monongahela valley. The mill was the basis
> of our economy. When the mill shut down so
> did the community surrounding it. The soot
> and dust from the mill was referred to
> locally as "Gold Dust" even as we
> swept it from our stoops and our
> windshields, and hung our clean laundry in
> the basement to dry.

> I still am not sure that air which is
> invisible is still there to be breathed, and
> there is something positively unhealthy
> about pale white snow.......

> Given my background it puzzles me that we
> have as a nation chosen to give away our
> national industrial base to other countries
> whom we now depend on to supply us with
> basic needs. I also don't know how this part
> of history / social studies / economics is
> taught in schools today, and how that may
> contribute to this lack of understanding.

> Any ideas?

> dave


Port Huron Museum

tjgaffney@phmuseum.org

Interesting - perhaps this ties into the dumbing down of education and job skills requirements. Bar codes have rendered the need for store clerks to know their stock - and presumably be adequately intelligent to do so - unnecessary. Computers have eliminated their required ability to make change, no more basic math.

What was a high school education in 1960 is a colege degree now, what was a college now calls iteself a university, what was a trade school now teaches a very limited range of semiskills and calls itself a college. Who in the past 20 years was required to learn Latin, Greek Mythology, or Philosophy before graduating high school?

Shouldn't we do something to teach usable work skills that demand and require intelligence for those not academically inclined so that they can fill the higher paying skilled blue collar sector?

I can't help but wonder if the idea of resurrecting the artisan / craftsman approach to skilled hands-on work isn't the apporach to take. Does anybody out there know of any programs?

Dave



irondave@bellsouth.net

I concur with Dave. Furthermore, it seems as if students are as dumb as ever. I should know since I go to school with them every day. I'm a firm believer in "the more we know, the more there is to learn." The problem is learning isn't easy so in order to level the playing field, our academic programs are dumbed down. Also, we hear calls for increased spending on education that will merely perpetuate the status quo. Haven't these people heard of "quality, not quantity?" The result is a product (graduate) unaware of many things they should be. In closing, I know someone who made it through school who could barely read or do arithmetic.

God Bless,
Gerald W. Kopiasz

> Interesting - perhaps this ties into the
> dumbing down of education and job skills
> requirements. Bar codes have rendered the
> need for store clerks to know their stock -
> and presumably be adequately intelligent to
> do so - unnecessary. Computers have
> eliminated their required ability to make
> change, no more basic math.

> What was a high school education in 1960 is
> a colege degree now, what was a college now
> calls iteself a university, what was a trade
> school now teaches a very limited range of
> semiskills and calls itself a college. Who
> in the past 20 years was required to learn
> Latin, Greek Mythology, or Philosophy before
> graduating high school?

> Shouldn't we do something to teach usable
> work skills that demand and require
> intelligence for those not academically
> inclined so that they can fill the higher
> paying skilled blue collar sector?

> I can't help but wonder if the idea of
> resurrecting the artisan / craftsman
> approach to skilled hands-on work isn't the
> apporach to take. Does anybody out there
> know of any programs?

> Dave


hrrhs@aol.com

This thread is going in two directions both which merit comment.

First, Why are we Ashamed....deal with the lack of interest of industrial preservation. Having had great experience in this area as having once served as Philadelphia's L&I Commissioner and having sat on the city's Historical Commission I can tell you without reservation that the "Main Stream" Peservation Community not only has little or no interest in Industrial Heritage, but oalso has little or no knowledge in it. "Historical Preservation" is for the tuchy-feely, cocktail set who are mono-focused on becoming "taste police". While serving as commissioner I tried to get the Preservation Alliance to focus on some significant industrial and some Railroad Related structures for preservation, but found that the sole interest was in residiential and commercial structures in the high-tone neighborhoods where the "taste police" lived.This was done out the the purely selfish desire to stabilize their own property values. If a loft building could be converted to apartments, and tax credits made it more viable then there was great interest. But little industrial gems in "industrial neighboorhoods" had absolutely no attention focused on them, since an adaptive reuse was much more difficult to achieve. Tousands and dollars and hundreds of hours were wasted trying to save residential buildings that had little or no value, but were within the sphere of influence of the cocktail party set.

Take SHORE tower on the NEC for instance. It is one of the last standing frame towers on the NEC and is well over 100 years of age and is a focal point on the "Connecting Railroad" at Frankford Junction. One day it will fall to a fussee because it just is not socially motivating and no one in the preservation community resides in that area. The same can be said for the old Rockville Tower west of Harrisburg.

In the recognized main stream Preservation Community it is all about "whose ox is being gored"

The second issue is the dumming down of our blue collar work force. After we have exported most of our skilled non-academic Blue Collar jobs, the remain good paying jobs which are mostly in the Construction industry and now been eroded by illegal migrant labor and the wages are being exported "home". You can no longer find a local drywall contractor.

Our "feel good" academic culture has distroyed initatve. I recently taught a senior level course at one of this nation's finest engineer schools and was shocked to find what grade creep and politicasl correctness as done to the "normal" bell curve distribution. It seems every one wants to be an A student. We need to encourage ellcellance and hard work from a broader spectum of this country's youth. Mega-Buck high schools are a fraud. We have lost the real focus on good basic educastional skills!

v-scarpitti@att.net

Part of the problem is that most of us here are self-regulated learners. We like to learn and not only understand why it is important but also are who we are due to what we have learned.

You do not get this way from going to a university. Some of us get it on our own, some from family, and some of peers. The problem with many of our children is they do not have any inspiration to become a self regulated learner.

Tom Gears

Sale Article
tgears1@comcast.net