Fatality on UP 844 Frontier Days Excursion

J3a-614 · **Posted:** Mon Jul 23, 2018 2:03 am

A perspective from a Stephen Trinder on Facebook that parallels my own thoughts.

Quote:

Thought of the weekend, by now we've all seen the video of 844 hitting the person trackside. I did want to watch it to figure out what happened, and now that I have a good idea, I no longer feel the need to see it. Every year about 250 in the United States are killed by trains, often because they were on or closer to the tracks than they should have been, just as what happened this weekend. The only reason this has drawn more attention that the other incidents is because 844 was involved.

What we don't know is why she was in so close, which to be fair is what I really want to know. If I to guess, she was not a railfan, just a curious member of the public who head "an old steam train is coming through town" and did not understand the implications of what she was doing. My guess is she thought she was safe because she was technically outside of the track gauge. While to those of us who know something about railroads, it's obvious she was too close. I've seen enough of the general public's ignorance about this subject, that nothing surprises me anymore.

Most people can not grasp the concept that Union Pacific is a railroad in the way that Southwest is an airline. They often think the roadname on the side is "the name of the train," so this would have been "the Union Pacific train" despite the fact Union Pacific is running hundreds if not thousands of trains at any given moment. Also everybody thinks that everybody who works on the train is "the Conductor," the position getting most commonly confused with the engineer. Let's be honest people don't understand that a train is a collective unit made of one or more locomotives and one or more cars. I'm sure we've all encountered a person struggling to describe an individual locomotive or car because they want to speak about that individual item without the rest of the train, but can only think of the word "train" to describe it. Then shall we bring up "I thought these tracks were abandoned" again?

While this is just my personal guess, I don't find it unreasonable to believe she didn't understand the difference between loading gauge and track gauge.

So where does that leave us? I think the first question is "how did everybody else become so ignorant about this?" I can't believe it myself, there are lots of subjects that fail to interest me in the slightest way, yet I can't imagine being this ignorant on the subject. I have no interest in American Football and I could not explain at gunpoint what a down is, but I can tell you that the Pittsburgh Steelers are a team in the NFL.

The rail world, whether it is those who actually are railroaders or railfans, has failed to create an understanding of our world among the public, and I understand this is difficult. When I talk to normal people about this, I struggle to get what I'm trying to say across because I either water-down too much or not enough. I don't know where to start when you know absolutely nothing about the subject. But we somehow have to figure out how to educate the people about this subject.

This video is unfortunately I believe the only way to get it across. People throughout history have always had to learn things the hard way. Those who don't know the past are doomed to repeat it and those who do are doomed to standby helplessly or so it always seems. Is it crass? Yes. Is it disturbing? Yes. But we live in a crass world full of far more disturbing things, many of which are done with intent. If there's one source of comfort in this, it's that it was a total accident. She didn't set out to get hit by a train and the crew of the train didn't set out to end her life. I'm sure we've all seen an ISIS beheading. If you're like me, you were far more disturbed by that. While this is no where near on that level, the fact remains terrible things happen in the world and we cannot afford to stick our head in the sand and ignore them until everything is unicorns and rainbows again.

On our part, I think we've spent too much time pointing at these people and saying "What idiots, you stepped on the tracks and got hit by a train. What did you expect?" Obviously to not get hit by a train. I remember one incident at out local railroad museum, we had sixteen people crawl under the train just as it was about to leave (even the brakes had been released), just to get to the other side of the tracks. The "All Aboard" didn't mean anything to them, neither did the locomotive's horn (a lot of people do not understand the concept of whistle signals and think trains sound their horns for the same reason cars do). I've already seen people call this woman an idiot. Was she? I mean she did something stupid, but we all have done stupid things in our lives. For all I know she could have had a PhD. I'm guessing she didn't know anything about railroads, but as we've seen this is a societal, not an individual problem.

What I want to come out of this is an increased understanding of the role railroads have played and continue to play in our society. A basic understanding of how railroads work, how big trains are and just because most times you go by the tracks, there isn't a train there doesn't mean that the line is abandoned. An understanding just because you're outside of the gauge doesn't mean you're far away enough to be safe.

Eric S Strohmeyer · **Posted:** Mon Jul 23, 2018 5:05 am

Good morning folks,

I would like to first say my condolences to the family of the deceased. Having watched the video, there is no doubt in my mind that this was a truly tragic accident. I feel horrible for the loss life and the pain the deceased's family and friends are feeling tonight..

To the train crew involved, I send my heartfelt sympathy to you. I know the terrible grief and guilt you must be feeling.

Those that suggested this might have been a suicide should stop. I believe the deceased only wanted to take a video of the train on her smart phone. To me, it appears that she simply didn't realize she was standing too close to the tracks.

To the operator of the drone, I want to extend a thank you to you for taking that video. Without your video, many people would have wondered - "What happened?" As graphic and traumatic as it was, that video will likely by the reason the Union Pacific steam program survives. The number of eye witnesses, combined with the excellent (but highly unpleasant) video of the accident, means that the usual ambulance chasing lawyers who would be quick to try to "monetize" this tragedy can be easily defeated and rebuked.

This was a truly horrible accident.

softwerkslex · **Posted:** Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:50 am

So I Googled for images for something that would show what we all know, but a picture is worth a thousand words. Here you can clearly see how 844 is much wider than the track gauge, and standing at the edge of the ties is still way too close. You can also see how at that point the pilot beam is a multi-ton sledge hammer aimed at your neck. And if your attention is focused on your phone screen, you will not be aware of the approaching impact.

It is really different from EU-Denmark. Here the public does not have access to trackside. The track is separated and secured, and rules are strictly enforced. I personally have been reprimanded by authorities for stepping down from the locomotive without an orange safety vest.

The only thing I think could be different or necessary in the future, is safety warnings about safe distance on all advertisements and public announcements. The difference between this event and many other train interactions, is the 844 is attracting a lot of viewers who may not otherwise have regular interaction with trains, and may not have the daily personal knowledge of what the speeds and dimensions are. If you live in a suburban house far from railways, and your first time standing next to the tracks is an 844 excursion, you might be a little naive about the physics.

Ron Travis · **Joined:** Sun May 15, 2005 2:22 pm **Posts:** 1543

For standing that close, I can’t see any possible explanation that is based on not understanding the train width. She may not have understood that the train is wider than the ties, but still; who would want to stand just inches in the clear of a speeding train, or any other type of vehicle for that matter?

JayZee · **Joined:** Sat May 07, 2016 1:12 am **Posts:** 140

According to UP Steam website the 844 is heading back to Cheyenne in the coming days. The question remains as to what changes could we expect with the steam program after this incident? Is it safe to assume that after seeing the footage UP won't be blamed for this legally? I see 1 possible argument (from a non rail point of view). They will state that the individual had no way of knowing how far she should have been from the track, even though she trespassed how was she supposed to know? I think that will be the argument, but in the end UP can't be held accountable in any way shape or form. The witnesses and footage show the crew doing everything they could, and UP has done as good a job as can be expected keeping people off their 21,000+ mile network..

Tony Pignaloni · **Joined:** Thu Sep 29, 2016 4:55 pm **Posts:** 28

From UP website.

https://www.up.com/aboutup/special_trai ... fety.shtml

UP CARES ABOUT YOUR SAFETY
When steam locomotives come through your community, it is especially important to remember and emphasize safety. The average train overhangs the track by at least three feet and wider loads can extend even further from the tracks. It is imperative that pedestrians stand back at least 25 feet or more from the tracks to avoid debris and steam or being hit by the train itself.

We understand these events and railroad equipment, especially historic equipment like No. 844, are fascinating and we want you to enjoy these moments in time with us; but ask that you please do it safely. Since we know capturing the moment with pictures and video is important to many, please check out Union Pacific's photo policy.

For everyone's safety:

Trains can’t stop quickly to avoid people or vehicles on the tracks.
A train’s distance from you and its speed can be deceiving.
The average train overhangs the track by at least three feet – take extra precaution and stand back at least 25 feet from all railroad tracks..
Railroad tracks, trestles, yards and right-of-way are private property – please do not trespass.
Never assume tracks are abandoned or inactive – ALWAYS expect a train and assume tracks are active.
Safety is a top priority for Union Pacific. We are committed to public safety through various outreach channels and initiatives such as community events, media outreach, local law enforcement partnerships, employee resource groups and Operation Lifesaver. Our UP CARES public safety initiative brings together communities in a collaborative and caring effort to promote railroad grade crossing and pedestrian safety.

Union Pacific cares about every individual in each community that we serve. We enjoy these events and opportunities to interact with you.

Bartman-TN · **Joined:** Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:45 pm **Posts:** 320

The issue of how wide a train is can be answered pretty quickly by looking at the clearance diagrams. The standard rail route clearance is 18 feet wide (16 feet at building doors), so the possible overhang is almost 6 feet outside of the rails based upon the door standard. With railroad ties only 9 feet wide, this means 3-1/2 feet off the end of the tie is still within the clearance diagram for doors, and 4-1/2 feet for other locations. I've seen objects hanging off of cars beyond that, so the safest standard is to just stay off the property, which is generally 25 to 50 feet outside of the track line.

Bart

Dennis Storzek · **Posted:** Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:43 am

Ron Travis wrote:

For standing that close, I can’t see any possible explanation that is based on not understanding the train width. She may not have understood that the train is wider than the ties, but still; who would want to stand just inches in the clear of a speeding train, or any other type of vehicle for that matter?

I donno, the idiots on bicycles do it to me on our country roads out here almost every other morning during the summer. The lane is ten feet wide, I'm doing 55 MPH, the bikes less than half that, and they want to take an additional two feet. That's a pretty tight squeeze.

I think back to when I was a little kid, maybe five or six, and a conversation I had with my mother while standing on a suburban station platform about how far from the track one should stay. My argument (I was an argumentative little brat) was that those were tracks, but the platform was sidewalk and I should be able to stand anywhere on it. She stated with great conviction that a train at speed would "suck you under it" as it went by, and to prove the point, we waited for the next express train to come trough without stopping. I was suitably impressed... even from ten feet back on the platform it felt too close. Maybe no one ever had this conversation with the victim? Have YOU had this conversation with your kids, grand kids?

Bowmore · **Joined:** Tue Jul 12, 2016 6:12 pm **Posts:** 195

I volunteered on the LA Metrolink trains to the Ventura County Fair. I was chatting with the engineer during a lay by, and he told me he had hit a person 3 times in his career. He still has nightmares about it
I also volunteer on a tourist RR. When we had runbys of our steam engine, we kept everyone back about 20 feet from the track. Some had to be told more than once..

p51 · **Posted:** Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:42 am

This is a good opportunity for Operation Lifesaver to step up where they can.
This whole awful situation reminds me of how I shot rifles in the Army. You never closed one eye when looking through sights, and used that other eye to be aware of anything around you on that side. It's too easy to be focused on a sight picture when something icky might be coming at you from elsewhere.
I shoot photos the same way and for the same reason. It's not just trains; you might have someone coming to steal your camera, a car's driver not paying attention, etc...

Termite7 · **Joined:** Thu Aug 21, 2008 8:29 pm **Posts:** 397

Back during the original Southern Steam excursion program the railroad "often" sent an inspection vehicle ahead of the train. The workers on the vehicle slowed down and looked at groups of people and would occasionally stop where large groups had gathered and gently walked people back away from the tracks. They did not do it "every time" but I did see it happen often, it might have just been on our division.

I also saw a track inspector on a high-rail during one trip on the most recent NS steam program (2012?)...they were looking for problems too.

I know that doesn't solve all the problems...but it might help.

If you go back and look at older videos of the 844 running in years past you cannot miss the visible "wave" of people dashing back from the trackside as the train "thunders" past...it surprises many people how big, fast and LOUD they really are.

Wishing the woman's family God's Peace and Grace.

T7

J3a-614 · **Posted:** Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:01 pm

Thinking more about this, I do wonder about how too many people behave around trains.

We've discussed that a lot of people do not understand the overhang they have beyond rails and ties. Termite7 just commented about this watching the 844 create a "wave" in a crowd, as people pull back, not realizing how big, fast and loud the Alco 4-8-4 is until it's upon them.

What remains a puzzle is still "Why so close?" You wouldn't be taking pictures of a race car while standing on the white shoulder line, or be so close to that same line if you had to change a tire, so why that for a train, even if it is on rails?

And being so close for a photograph doesn't make sense, either. Trains are just too big, you need to step back to get it in without cutting something off, weird distortion from a wide angle lens, or both.

I do concur with P51 as well; this is something for Operation Lifesaver to cover, too.

Unfortunately, nothing we do will completely eliminate the problems, too many people pass up things like public service announcements, or they think it will never happen to them.

And so there will be lawsuits against railroads when someone stops on a grade crossing and gets hit with a commuter train, resulting in a third rail being torn loose and impaling the leading MU car, starting a fire and killing passengers and the motorman. . .and when people go around stopped cars and lowered gates and gets there at the same time as the train. . .and people will scream and yell when Florida East Coast restores its second main line and starts passenger service again, and people die because they ignored gates and bells and lights and horns, and the politicians will make more noise about "doing something about an unsafe railroad."

And we, in the preservation world, take it the hardest because in many ways we are the weakest.

The one good thing about this is I do believe most people realized you do need to stay out of a train's way, and that railroads are almost always in the clear in these incidents.

Still, it doesn't help that some lawyers and others seem to be excessively nervous, considering the relatively rare occurrences of such things.

Son of a Coast Liner · **Joined:** Fri Aug 26, 2016 11:06 am **Posts:** 27

"I donno, the idiots on bicycles do it to me on our country roads out here almost every other morning during the summer. The lane is ten feet wide, I'm doing 55 MPH, the bikes less than half that, and they want to take an additional two feet. That's a pretty tight squeeze."

As an avid cyclist, I must ask why are they idiots? You in such a hurry you cant allow a few seconds to safely pass a cyclists who probably has as much right to the road space as you do?

p51 · **Posted:** Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:35 pm

J3a-614 wrote:

What remains a puzzle is still "Why so close?" You wouldn't be taking pictures of a race car while standing on the white shoulder line, or be so close to that same line if you had to change a tire, so why that for a train, even if it is on rails?

It's not just trains.
People stand right next to the road on European rally races, with cars zipping past at speeds that 844 could never attain. And yes, a few are hit and killed every year. Same with the Tour De France, as they're going highway speeds off those mountains. People get hit, then, too. You can easily find plenty of videos showing each.

I am reminded of something I saw from a guy who came with me and my best friend when we were chasing N&W 611 through Florida in the late 1980s (I was a teen, Mark was in his 20s and my pal Bob was in his early 30s. Bob and I had been around a lot of trains, but Mark hadn't).
We were at the Suwannee River bridge at Fargo, Georgia, waiting on 611 on a NS run to Valdosta, a couple of hours early. This is where they usually did the photo run by on those runs, so we knew we could get ahead of the train from there after getting our photos. Mark was not a rail fan but he knew photography and didn't want to be left behind for the day. He didn't want to risk getting in the way of Bob and me, so he went to the other side of the tracks. Bob and I used a large signal box as a base to shoot from.
Soon, a NS freight came across the long bridge. Bob and I snapped our shots, and then we noticed that the freight was blowing for the grade crossing behind us, only the engine's horns were not giving the normal signal for that. The engineer was leaning on the horn and we had no idea why. Bob later swore he heard a muffled cry nearby as the six-axle EMD units roared past at speed.
After the train cleared, we saw Mark on the other side of the tracks, much more pale the normal with a dazed look. When Bob asked Mark what had happened, Mark said, "I got the train in my view finder and it just kept getting bigger and BIGGER…" Realizing he must have been in the open near the tracks, we asked where he had been standing.
He pointed straight down, at the end of the ties! Had he not jumped out of the way, that EMD would have been wearing a Mark-colored smear on its pilot when they got into Valdosta! We noticed that Mark was well clear of the tracks for the rest of the day, having by then realized he almost got creamed by a diesel going at Run 8. I recently found the negative I shot of that train, which I really should get a good print of to remind me of that day.

softwerkslex · **Posted:** Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:49 pm

Son of a Coast Liner wrote:

"I donno, the idiots on bicycles do it to me on our country roads out here almost every other morning during the summer. The lane is ten feet wide, I'm doing 55 MPH, the bikes less than half that, and they want to take an additional two feet. That's a pretty tight squeeze."

As an avid cyclist, I must ask why are they idiots? You in such a hurry you cant allow a few seconds to safely pass a cyclists who probably has as much right to the road space as you do?

Yea, you wouldn't get much sympathy in Denmark either - "Land of 10,000,000 cycles" should be on our license plates. The cycle has the right of way pretty much everywhere here by law.

But I respect the underlying point that many people do not have strong command of spatial measures and movement dynamics, even if I don't like the specific example.

Fatality on UP 844 Frontier Days Excursion

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