> Matt,
> Your points are well taken concerning
> restoring a small or medium sized locomotive
> and operating it every weekend for several
> miles at relatively low speeds (10-30 mph).

-snip-

> I don't judge any of
> them but I do know what I like and that is
> rocketing down the mainline with a big train
> at track speed. I savor every time that I
> can partake of this particular experience
> and re-live those truly memorable times in
> my head while waiting for the next one to
> come along. We're all different but thank
> goodness there are still enough of us
> interested in steam that we have many fine
> operating examples still with us today in
> many gauges, wheel arrangements and size.
> See you wherever steam lives.
> Don C.

Hmm.

I've ridden a few mainline trips and they all seemed too long with dull scenery. About the only times things got interesting was when we went though a yard or met a freight. The only "mainline" runby I find really memorable was the runby at Melrose on 611's last trip up Saluda.

It's too bad Steamtown can't really restore the old Lackawanna to a true, high-speed, double-track railroad. Then all those big engines would have a decent place to stretch their legs and satisfy you strange people who seem to like getting only a brief glimpse of the machine as it flashes past. :o)

I still think it's silly to spend all that money and time on something that doesn't have a garunteed place to operate. I also think there are too many big engines that have been restored -- three or four besides the UP engines would be adequate IMHO, given the current mainline excursion climate. I'm thinking of our hobby overall, not just my own personal preferences. If you move a good chunk of the money and effort spent on maintaining too many big engines to the smaller ones, more people would have a chance to experience steam in SOME form.

The South Carolina RR Museum
mconrad@compuzone.net

I can well see the point of operating 5 or 6 smaller locomotives on a branchline setting. No debate here, really. I want to see the NH&I rebuild and run their CN #1533 very badly. I also wouldn't trade off Strasburg's fleet of relatively small steamers, but...
...I was watching a film of Rio Grande articulateds and NYC Hudson's a few nights ago. The awesome nature of those huge locomotives moving at drag and high speed was unbelievable. Huge drivers, valve gear, and sheer size. There is magic in that, and only large steam on the mainline can convey that impression. As long as there are a few roads willing to provide the track time, I certainly hope there remain serviceable large locomotives in operable condition. I only wish there were more of them. I think that in 20 years, we may well see a second mainline steam revival.


glueck@maine.edu

d I'm glad they're there, but I love big steam, and you'll never replace that in my mind. If you're bored by the scenery on a mainline excursion you're looking the wrong direction. The thing we want to see isn't trackside, it's on the tracks.

Sincerely,
David Ackerman

david_ackerman@yahoo.com

I'm
> thinking of our hobby overall, not just my
> own personal preferences. If you move a good
> chunk of the money and effort spent on
> maintaining too many big engines to the
> smaller ones, more people would have a
> chance to experience steam in SOME form.

You guys need to go across the pond to Britain and visit one of the steam centres for an "Open Day." I have vivid memories of a visit to the North Yorkshire Moors Railway for an open day in 1980, during which nine -- count 'em -- nine steam locomotives were in service, handling multiple trains over the 18-mile line. Every train had a different engine on its return trip, and trains were passing at a mid-line passing siding. They were even invoking an 0-6-0T "pannier tank" as a banker (what we would call a helper) on every outbound train. The engines ranged from that 0-6-0T helper to a 2-8-0, 4-6-0 and a high-drivered 2-6-4T. A similar visit to the Severn Valley Railway found a similar number of engines in steam, ranging in size from an 0-4-0T handling station switching to a War Department 2-10-0 named "Gordon," as in the Thomas the Tank Engine "Gordon." I saw four engines under steam at Chama, the largest number I've ever experienced in one place in this country.

K4s1361@hotmail.com

> In the meantime, here's a picture I took
> last fall of Number 60.

Thank you for the image. If you have others, I'd like to see them.

glueck@maine.edu

> I've ridden a few mainline trips and they
> all seemed too long with dull scenery. About
> the only times things got interesting was
> when we went though a yard or met a freight.
> The only "mainline" runby I find
> really memorable was the runby at Melrose on
> 611's last trip up Saluda.

Matt,
I'm at a loss as to why you would spend money to ride behind steam only to amuse yourself by sitting in a coach where you cannot hear or see the object of your fascination. May I suggest that you give mainline steam another chance by finding an open vestibule Dutch door as close to the locomotive as possible and drinking in everything the locomotive has to say. I too would be bored if I locked myself away from the locomotive and listened to nothing but the A/C system blowers churning all day long. Heck, I ride Metra to work everyday and I generally sleep because it IS boring for the most part.

Let me give you an example of why I support mainline steam even if it is only infrequently.

I volunteer on the crew of Milwaukee Road #261 and have experienced this same reaction from the public EACH time that we operate to Galesburg, IL, and return from Chicago. The excursions generally make two stops in suburban Chicago to entrain and detrain passengers varying over the years to either La Grange Road or La Grange Stone Avenue and Naperville or Route 59. It has never failed that as we depart in the late afternoon or evening from any of these four locations that the HUGE crowd spontaneously breaks into cheers and applause as the 4-8-4 starts her big train and marches away from the suburban stop. Why are people who have only a passing interest in railroading and steam locomotives react in this manner? Maybe because it is one of the most moving, exciting experiences that can be witnessed today in this world of prepackaged, totally unimaginative entertainment. I'd never seen this reaction before but once you see it for the first time, you'll get goosebumps on your arms each time that you think of it. No low drivered 4-6-0 ever did that for me. As I said before, thank goodness we are sufficiently diverse in our interests so as to keep as many of the old girls run as possible. We just get our "fixes" in different doses and in different ways.

Don C.



milw261@sbcglobal.com

n/m

Wilmington & Western RR
sethajackson@hotmail.com

While this thread has gone WAY off track from Richard asking about photos, I would like to add one factor overlooked so far. If money is donated , that donation is from one person or group for a favored cause (engine abc). If that cause doesn't exist, the money doesn't necessarily go to another cause (engine def). No one can make someone else spend his or her hard earned money on something he or she doesn't want to spend it on. Its a hard lesson I learn everyday in the retail world. The best bargain is lost on the consumer who doesn't want the product.

http://www.nps.gov/stea/

> I would like to hope that Richard is
> correct. I will add that I'm farily certain
> that I can remeber not only every mainline
> excursion I've been on, but every occasssion
> that I've seen a big steamer fired. I can't
> personaly make this claim about the smaller
> ones. Sure, I love them and I'm glad they're
> there, but I love big steam, and you'll
> never replace that in my mind. If you're
> bored by the scenery on a mainline excursion
> you're looking the wrong direction. The
> thing we want to see isn't trackside, it's
> on the tracks.

Ah, but therein lies the rub! In order to make a mainline excursion pay, you have to sell tickets. And as somebody once told me, "If you want to see the engine, don't ride the train!" One of the reasons mainline excursions don't do so well is that about as many people chase them as ride them. Chasers don't buy tickets, and therefore don't contribute to the upkeep of the locomotive.

With big mainline trips, the only way you'll get to see the locomotive trackside and still support the excursion financially is if a photo runby is offered as part of the package. Runbys complicate scheduling, crowd control (because of daisy-pickers, a necessary evil of excursions), and are heavily dependent on the weather. No wonder the mainlines don't like doing them.

The reverse is true for smaller engines. When I go to Strasburg, for example, I like to ride and then drive down some of the back roads and get some runby action (if I go without the family). It's the best of both worlds. I get to see the engine in action, but I also support her upkeep and operation by buying a ticket. Finally, I get to pick my own runby locations and avoid the clueless daisy-pickers who don't know to shut up and stay out of my shot.

While it would be nice if mainline steam made a return, I think the opposite will be true. I know you guys don't want to hear this. The only way mainline steam will be saved is if several unlikely things happen:

1. Liberal courts and conservative lawmakers swap places so we eliminate the glut of frivolous lawsuits that are eroding this country's sense of personal responsibility. I see this as the biggest enemy of steam in general, mainline steam in particular.

2. The insurance situation improves, probably with the formation of a co-op insurance company to insure all rail museums and excursions. This is really a symptom of #1 above.

3. The excursion operators (and host railroads) make it worthwhile to ride and still get to see the train, preferably in unique places. Read that "more runbys in out-of-the-way, odd, and scenic spots that aren't accessible to chasers."

4. Ticket prices remain reasonable (actually go back to being reasonable) for the average daisy-picker, while still providing the sponsor a net profit.

I don't dislike big steam. I have a fantasy that the US suddenly stops buying foreign oil and converts everything over to coal, so the freight railroads would bring back revenue steam operations on a daily basis. I'm sure most here would find that a wonderful thing too. But let's face it, that *is* a fantasy -- it ain't gonna happen!

The future of steam railroading, if it even has one, is on branchlines. Even here steam is threatened by high insurance premiums and ever-tightening regulations. These are the real reasons SCRM hasn't started work on our #44 -- well, those and the fact that half the club is scared to death of anything with over 2 lbs. of pressure.

I haven't even addressed the ever-increasing, dangerous shortage of qualified people who know steam thoroughly. It no longer PAYS to know steam, so very few younger people are learning about it. I would have loved to find a job working on a steam railroad when I got out of college. But the economics just didn't work out.

The South Carolina RR Museum
mconrad@compuzone.net

Unfortunately Steamtown has made it very difficult for "visiting steam". This would be a great place for guest appearances but the politics of dealing with NPS prevent this.

How about running on the tracks of commuter agencies? The Golden Gate people seem to do well on the San Francisco-San Jose line.

ron55@westworld.com

> Ah, but therein lies the rub! In order to
> make a mainline excursion pay, you have to
> sell tickets. And as somebody once told me,
> "If you want to see the engine, don't
> ride the train!"

On the trip I took behind 611 from Bellevue to Columbus I rode in the open car, right behind the tender, there and back. My wife enjoyed a book in her air conditioned coach and the kids roamed the train. Lots of cinders and action with the 50-55sec MP speeds. Too bad the route was so flat, 611 was not even working ...50 feet from riding the cab with a darn good idea what was up front and how she was running.

lamontdc@adelphia.net

> On the trip I took behind 611 from Bellevue
> to Columbus I rode in the open car, right
> behind the tender, there and back. My wife
> enjoyed a book in her air conditioned coach
> and the kids roamed the train. Lots of
> cinders and action with the 50-55sec MP
> speeds. Too bad the route was so flat, 611
> was not even working ...50 feet from riding
> the cab with a darn good idea what was up
> front and how she was running.

How long ago was this trip? Every trip I ever rode behind the 611, there was an extra water tender, tool car, and crew car between the first public car and the locomotive. That adds up to way more than 50 feet to the cab! This seems to be pretty much standard for most mainline excursions. I take your point, and it's still valid, I'm just wondering if this was a trip from before the Dismal Swamp business or an unusual circumstance. Your comment about speed makes me think it might have been pre-Dismal Swamp, because after that the fastest they'd let 611 go was 40mph.

The South Carolina RR Museum
mconrad@compuzone.net