Consider the railroad museum that only runs anything once a month. Steam may well be a critical factor depending on other variables of course.

Valid question: Chicken or egg?
Are the lines successful because they run steam, or are they running steam because they're successful enough to afford to? Strasburg wouldn't get anywhere with diesel. Grand Canyon could completely dieselize and few would care. Cass needs steam. Valley or Conway Scenic, debatable.
Honestly, the number of railroads that started as a real "steam experience" decades ago and have remained so is far smaller than it used to be.


They have no "old heavyweights," only Harriman commuter coaches. Of all the "spare equipment" they have accumulated, heavyweights are not among them. The "diesel helper" is also the HEP car; they do have two HEP power cars but.....




Verde Canyon "packs them in" big-time even on weird weekdays, because they have an aggressive marketing department that goes after bus tours, tour package companies, etc. in the heavy tourist area of Sedona. Steam would absolutely be superfluous for them, in fact even harmful because of the many open cars on the train (to look at the canyon, look for eagles, etc.)

Our multi year experience at New Hope is that 98% of the riders could care less what's pulling the train. The exception being for special occasion trains where steam has been historically an integral part of the story.

For the first time last year we offered the North Pole Express in either steam or diesel form and charged an extra 20% or so for the steam version. Sales proved that a sizeable majority of the general public were willing to pay more for steam for this special event.

Therefore, it's a complex equation that boils down to a lot of specifics. Most of the time most of the riders really don't care.

IMHO-Ross Rowland

I believe one differentiating factor can be how much of your passengers are "walk up". This might not necessarily mean that people walk up and ride on the same day, but in my mind can also include people who find out about the train by passing by and then return later.

In this regard, I have noticed that more people will take notice of a train with a steam engine on it. A steam engine will motivate more people to stop and ask, "what is this? Where can I get tickets? When do you run?". I see this occur very rarely when the train has a diesel on it.

So in that regard, I believe a steam engine can cause more people to take notice of your train ride.

Nonetheless, I do agree that almost nobody actually riding the train cares or notices what is pulling it.

When I visited Grand Canyon for the Lerro charter I was told the Harriman cars were heavyweights. Those were the cars I was referring to. And yes I am aware of the HEP need, which is why I suggested run only the Harriman cars behind steam so you don't need the HEP.


Have any of you actually worked the ticket office of a tourist line that operates both steam and diesel? I have, I used to daily but now only a few times a year due to other work getting in the way. Trust me, people care what is pulling the train and not just "railfans."
And yes... There are also people who ask "what's the difference" when I told them on such and such day we would be running steam. That's fine, it's our job to educate them about the history of railroading and usually after describing the steam engine, telling about it's history, and showing them a photo, they wanted to come back and ride again when steam was running.

For those who know, just what are the power systems currently at GCR? I could have sworn when I left all of the passenger cars were using a quarter HEP system including the old commuter cars.


Robby Peartree

The Silver Creek and Stephenson Railroad in Freeport, IL uses a Heisler as their main power and only uses diesels if the steam locomotive is down for repairs or a rebuild. On my last visit there I was told that the railroad wouldn’t be there if it weren’t for the continued use of the steam locomotive.

Thomas

My totally arbitrary opinion was based on more than just "runs steam once a month". It's based on the fact they run daily trains during peak season, often more than one train a day. So let's call it 1 train out of 30 for this discussion. Roughly 3% steam. That's why I said they're pretty much a diesel operation. Yes, they run steam and when they do it's a very nice trip. But it's not a big part of their revenue.

For the others than you mentioned, I'm guessing steams makes up a larger percentage of both trips run and passengers carried. If you run only on weekends, and one day a month is steam, that's still over 10% of your trips. If you run both days, it would be 1/4 of your run days.

Obviously what I think doesn't matter, and there's no official definition of a steam operation aside from the FRA rules which start the moment you toss a match into the firebox. But my point was that most folks riding GCRY don't get a steam train experience, nor are they there for one.

Hmm... That might make for a good criteria. Do this thought experiment: Pretend you have to tell today's load of passengers that you're not running steam on this trip. Offer them the chance to ride with a diesel, or get a refund. How many would ask for a refund? The theoretical results will tell you a lot about the importance of steam at your operation.

It's amazing how many people don't know and/or can't tell the difference. I recall one person asking for a refund since they'd expected to ride a steam train and didn't get to. Stuttering, I asked them why they thought that, mentally preparing my explanation that a Heisler Geared Locomotive may not look like the typical steam locomotive with large drivers, but it is indeed a steam. "Well, that's not a steam locomotive. It can't be, there wasn't any smoke!" I replied that it was indeed a steam locomotive, but it burns oil, so less smoke, and I'd be happy to show them the fire in the firebox to prove it. I also said that I'd pass on the "no smoke" compliment to the fireman.

You better reread the FRA rules even if you never throw a match into the firebox the tube instalatition starts the clock

Robby Peartree

GCRY has to run diesel helpers if the power is #29. The old LS&I consolidation is pretty wound out on the GCRY. She was never really designed for that type of operation.

4960 would be able to run without a diesel and has at different times. They have another large NP steamer or did have a large NP steamer that would be better than old #29. I personally don't understand why they did not go after that ATSF steamer a certain group wants to rebuild into a rolling science project. Another 614T is what comes to mind when I think about that ATSF locomotive. She would be in better hands with GCRY burning veggie oil.

Robert

Let me get this straight. A locomotive that can carry eight cars ALWAYS NEEDS A HELPER BECAUSE IT IS WORN OUT. But a locomotive that you say does not need a helper CAN ONLY PULL EIGHT CARS AND KEEP THE SCHEDULE DOES NOT NEED A DIESEL HELPER.
A 4-6-4 with 48,000 pounds te like 29 had before the front end work ﹰor a 4-8-4 with the tractive effort of a Santa Fe 3751 class that can only PULL 9 cars on the flat Grand Canyon Railway with 3% grades is a perfect match? What am I missing?

Robby Peartree

#29 pulled 4 Harriman cars unassisted just fine a couple years ago. But im guessing you're talking about the regular train. The regular train will always need a diesel for HEP as I mentioned, hence the reason I suggested the open air Harriman cars (which I think are still technically heavy-weights).

The Cog Railway was mentioned earlier, it should be mentioned that this years published schedule saw several days with a second afternoon steam train advertised, which seems to indicate the interest was there for steam.

Let's remember that the major for-profits are only going to do things that make sense financially. If their customers didn't care about steam, they wouldn't run it at all. In one article, the GSMR said they expected a 20% increase when they got the #1702 back to operation.

There seems to be an attitude on this site that "railfans" only chase and never ride the steam trains. I'm not sure where that comes from but I know I prefer to ride, and when I ride I always meet fellow railfans on the train. And yes, sometimes I like to chase! Usually I'll ride when I can and chase if the trip sells out before I can make plans to attend. The best case scenario is when I can ride and chase like when the 611 did 2 trips a day out of Roanoke, or at Durango when they operate multiple trains. (Chase the first trip out of town, ride the later trip).

Hmm, I never said LS&I #29 was worn out. I said on the grades of the GCRY with the weight their pulling and speeds they need to obtain is pretty hard for the #29 to achieve. She was designed for pulling low speed 90 to 100 iron ore hopper cars at probably no more than 10 to 20 mph most of the time. I realize they did a ton of work on #29 but still. She is a low speed heavy tonnage drag freight engine.

The 4960 is another matter.

The ATSF 4-6-4 a certain group is working to make into a rolling science project would be a better fit on the GCRY than becoming another episode like the CO614 after the ACE 3000 testing which required cutting holes in her frame, super heater header, and cylinder.

Robert