Can anbody explain why Pennsy didn't assign assign "blocks" of numbers to there engines? e.g., how is it K-4's had numbers ranging from single digits to 5000 numbers?



Superheater@rrmail.com

The PRR assigned blocks of numbers to the subsidiaries that operated the engines, rather than the class. For example the 6000's were West Jersey and Seashore engines.

After the Lines East and Lines West were reorganised into three Regions, the PRR began to number new engines in blocks; e.g. 4400-4600's were I1s, 5700's G5s, 5400's K4s.

They got away from this in the early diesel era, but then returned even before the general renumbering in anticipation of Penn Central.

Electric City Trolley Museum Association

> Can anbody explain why Pennsy didn't assign
> assign "blocks" of numbers to
> there engines? e.g., how is it K-4's had
> numbers ranging from single digits to 5000
> numbers?

I read somewhere that the purpose was to avoid any future renumbering of engines by simply assigning the next vacant number to any given new locomotive and never changing it again. Only on the Pennsy....

(In later years they did begin using blocks for certain new classes such as the M-1s, J-1s, duplexes, etc.)

Herb Harwood


herbhar@yahoo.com

On some days, there seemed to be a practice of
"filling in the blanks" by assigning low numbers
from retired old units to modern brand new
engines. The single-digit K could be an example.

TyburnRR@cs.com

I think I prefer David P. Morgan's whimsical supposition, that somewhere in Broad Street Station, a large top hat contained all the vacant engine numbers, and when one or more was required, a clerk simply reached into the hat. The last group of K4s engines, built by Baldwin, were sequentially numbered.

K4s1361@hotmail.com

> On some days, there seemed to be a practice
> of
> "filling in the blanks" by
> assigning low numbers
> from retired old units to modern brand new
> engines. The single-digit K could be an
> example.

When the Southern Pacific bought its first 60' long steel coaches in 1909 the numbers assigned appear to be random over a large span of numbers. The record books at CSRM show that the company was re-assigning numbers of retired coaches. The next orders came with numbers assigned in blocks.

Brian Norden

bnorden49@earthlink.net

The seemingly random system produced examples that were even more widespread than the example given -- the K4s engines' road numbers ranged from #8 to #8378, including several consecutive runs, such as 3667-3684, 3726-3775, 3838-3889, 5334-5499 and 7273-7288 -- but the road owned only 425 of that class. In one of its oversized photo albums, Kalmbach Publishing Co. used the term "promiscuous" to describe the (non)-pattern.

The answer is neither simple nor straightforward. From the 1840s, all PRR engines were named, but after the railroad acquired two other railroads in 1857, it assigned road numbers to all locomotives. When any of these original engines departed the roster, PRR filled the road-number vacancies with the engines that replaced them. This seems to have followed the dictates of the accounting department, which held that a new engine wasn't truly "new" but rather an asset replacement for another one that had been written off the books. As earlier post touched on this, but the result was that when any new group of engines was acquired, the railroad went back and filled in the gaps, producing what appeared to be a random array. Over the span of time, some road numbers were re-used on as many as seven engines.

Later on in the 19th century, PRR did assign some number blocks by subsidiary owner to cover acquired or controlled lines, then began a massive renumbering about the turn of the century to coordinate all of the road numbers of its subsidiaries. The 3000s (later changed to 4000s) were ex-Northern Central, 6500s were ex-New York, Philadelphia & Norfolk; and so on. The highest numbers (above 7001) were for engines operated by PRR's Lines West subsidiaries.

PRR gradually phased into block numbering by locomotive class for new engines between about 1919 and 1924. For classes that were produced over a span of time that bridged both systems, the result was a mixture of some random numbers and some blocks, such as occurred with the 238 B6sb 0-6-0s, the 425 K4s 4-6-2s, the 598 I1s 2-10-0s, and the 90 G5s 4-6-0s. For some reason, the 574 L1s 2-8-2s, while built contemporaneously with the above classes, were given consecutive runs of only two to five numbers for the most part, and one group of 25 from #3629 to #3653. The H-class 2-8-0s, representing the most common type on PRR with a combined total of more than 3,000 engines, were even more of a scatter-shot situation.

The M1 and M1a 4-8-2s (prototype built 1923 as #4700 and later renumbered to 6699; fleet production added 300 more engines in 1926 and 1930) were PRR's first large class of steam road locomotives for which all numbers were grouped consecutively (#6699-#6999). Of this group, #6755 survives today at the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania. The first PRR steam power of any class to hold that distinction were 90 C1 0-8-0 switchers built 1924-25 as #6550-6639.

This barely scratches the surface, and only touches on steam power. The electrics were mostly numbered in consecutive blocks, but PRR did use shell-game renumberings here and there. Diesels had their own combinations of random and block-assigned groups.

A full explanation is too lengthy to go into here, but the late William Edson gave an excellent and detailed summary on pp. 15-18 of his "Pennsy Steam and Electric" book. Another source is the Railway & Locomotive Historical Society's Bulletins 89, 90 and 91.

Dan Cupper
Harrisburg, Pa.

cupper@att.net

> The seemingly random system produced
> examples that were even more widespread than
> the example given -- the K4s engines' road
> numbers ranged from #8 to #8378, including
> several consecutive runs, such as 3667-3684,
> 3726-3775, 3838-3889, 5334-5499 and
> 7273-7288 -- but the road owned only 425 of
> that class. In one of its oversized photo
> albums, Kalmbach Publishing Co. used the
> term "promiscuous" to describe the
> (non)-pattern.

> The answer is neither simple nor
> straightforward. From the 1840s, all PRR
> engines were named, but after the railroad
> acquired two other railroads in 1857, it
> assigned road numbers to all locomotives.
> When any of these original engines departed
> the roster, PRR filled the road-number
> vacancies with the engines that replaced
> them. This seems to have followed the
> dictates of the accounting department, which
> held that a new engine wasn't truly
> "new" but rather an asset
> replacement for another one that had been
> written off the books. As earlier post
> touched on this, but the result was that
> when any new group of engines was acquired,
> the railroad went back and filled in the
> gaps, producing what appeared to be a random
> array. Over the span of time, some road
> numbers were re-used on as many as seven
> engines.

> Later on in the 19th century, PRR did assign
> some number blocks by subsidiary owner to
> cover acquired or controlled lines, then
> began a massive renumbering about the turn
> of the century to coordinate all of the road
> numbers of its subsidiaries. The 3000s
> (later changed to 4000s) were ex-Northern
> Central, 6500s were ex-New York,
> Philadelphia & Norfolk; and so on. The
> highest numbers (above 7001) were for
> engines operated by PRR's Lines West
> subsidiaries.

> PRR gradually phased into block numbering by
> locomotive class for new engines between
> about 1919 and 1924. For classes that were
> produced over a span of time that bridged
> both systems, the result was a mixture of
> some random numbers and some blocks, such as
> occurred with the 238 B6sb 0-6-0s, the 425
> K4s 4-6-2s, the 598 I1s 2-10-0s, and the 90
> G5s 4-6-0s. For some reason, the 574 L1s
> 2-8-2s, while built contemporaneously with
> the above classes, were given consecutive
> runs of only two to five numbers for the
> most part, and one group of 25 from #3629 to
> #3653. The H-class 2-8-0s, representing the
> most common type on PRR with a combined
> total of more than 3,000 engines, were even
> more of a scatter-shot situation.

> The M1 and M1a 4-8-2s (prototype built 1923
> as #4700 and later renumbered to 6699; fleet
> production added 300 more engines in 1926
> and 1930) were PRR's first large class of
> steam road locomotives for which all numbers
> were grouped consecutively (#6699-#6999). Of
> this group, #6755 survives today at the
> Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania. The first
> PRR steam power of any class to hold that
> distinction were 90 C1 0-8-0 switchers built
> 1924-25 as #6550-6639.

> This barely scratches the surface, and only
> touches on steam power. The electrics were
> mostly numbered in consecutive blocks, but
> PRR did use shell-game renumberings here and
> there. Diesels had their own combinations of
> random and block-assigned groups.

> A full explanation is too lengthy to go into
> here, but the late William Edson gave an
> excellent and detailed summary on pp. 15-18
> of his "Pennsy Steam and Electric"
> book. Another source is the Railway &
> Locomotive Historical Society's Bulletins
> 89, 90 and 91.

> Dan Cupper
> Harrisburg, Pa.

Dan: Your comments are appreciated. I especially liked the one that "some road numbers were re-used on as many as seven engines." I think that is amazing and really tells us how big the Pennsy really was in its heyday. Could you possibly give us just one example where a particular number was used on seven different engines?

Thanks.

Les Beckman (Hoosier Valley Railroad Museum/North Judson, Indiana)

midlandblb@cs.com

> Dan: Could you possibly
> give us just one example where a particular
> number was used on seven different engines?

> Thanks.

> Les Beckman (Hoosier Valley Railroad
> Museum/North Judson, Indiana)

========================================

Greetings to Les and the List:

Sure -- in fact, a couple of cases even extend the count to eight locomotives under a single road number, if you include latter-day GN electrics that PRR bought secondhand in the 1950s.

Here are two examples, from Bill Edson's book "Keystone Steam and Electric":

Road number 4 was used eight times, in succession, on--
-- An early unclassed 0-6-0
-- An early unclassed 4-6-0
-- A Class G2 4-6-0
-- An unclassed 2-4-6T
-- A Class H3 2-8-0
-- A Class H1 2-8-0
-- A Class H6a 2-8-0, and
-- A Class FF2 2-C+C-2 ex-GN Y1 boxcab electric.

With a count of seven, road number 437 was used, in succession, on--
-- An early unclassed 4-6-0
-- An early unclassed 0-6-0
-- A Class D5 4-4-0
-- An unclassed 0-6-0
-- Another unclassed 0-6-0
-- a Class H3 2-8-0, and
-- a Class H8b 2-8-0.

These are extreme examples, but most road numbers were recycled at least once or twice. However, some numbers only ever identified a single locomotive, both on the small and large ends of the spectrum (#1677 was only ever a Class A2a 0-4-0; #6100 was the one-of-a-kind S1-class Loewy-streamlined 6-4-4-6 "World's Fair engine").

Oddly, although PRR engines sported road numbers ranging from 1 through 10003, and thousands of those numbers were recycled, some numbers (including some rather large blocks of 100 or more) were never carried by any steam or electric locomotive. These include 3902-3904, 3908-3909, 4792-4799, 4945-4994, 5000, 5550-5683, 5750-5799, 5801-5937, 5941-6000, 6101-6109, 6112-6129, 6132-6149, 7000, 9456-9529, 9688-9699, 9797-9799, 9896-9899, and 10000 (not intended to be an exhaustive list).

When diesels arrived, some of them got numbers from these vacancies that steamers never wore, and in other cases (and this happened on B&O, too), steamers were renumbered to avoid conflicts in making room for blocks of diesel numbers. The road number 5000 was never carried by any PRR engine (but under Penn Central, it was an ex-New Haven EMD FL9); 7000 was not used until 1955, when a GP9 (PRR's "class" GP9) got that number; and the various 6100-series numbers noted above were finally applied to EMD SD40s and SD45s in the 1960s.

Dan Cupper
Harrisburg, Pa.

cupper@att.net

> ========================================

> Greetings to Les and the List:

> Sure -- in fact, a couple of cases even
> extend the count to eight locomotives under
> a single road number, if you include
> latter-day GN electrics that PRR bought
> secondhand in the 1950s.

> Here are two examples, from Bill Edson's
> book "Keystone Steam and
> Electric":

> Road number 4 was used eight times, in
> succession, on--
> -- An early unclassed 0-6-0
> -- An early unclassed 4-6-0
> -- A Class G2 4-6-0
> -- An unclassed 2-4-6T
> -- A Class H3 2-8-0
> -- A Class H1 2-8-0
> -- A Class H6a 2-8-0, and
> -- A Class FF2 2-C+C-2 ex-GN Y1 boxcab
> electric.

> With a count of seven, road number 437 was
> used, in succession, on--
> -- An early unclassed 4-6-0
> -- An early unclassed 0-6-0
> -- A Class D5 4-4-0
> -- An unclassed 0-6-0
> -- Another unclassed 0-6-0
> -- a Class H3 2-8-0, and
> -- a Class H8b 2-8-0.

> These are extreme examples, but most road
> numbers were recycled at least once or
> twice. However, some numbers only ever
> identified a single locomotive, both on the
> small and large ends of the spectrum (#1677
> was only ever a Class A2a 0-4-0; #6100 was
> the one-of-a-kind S1-class Loewy-streamlined
> 6-4-4-6 "World's Fair engine").

> Oddly, although PRR engines sported road
> numbers ranging from 1 through 10003, and
> thousands of those numbers were recycled,
> some numbers (including some rather large
> blocks of 100 or more) were never carried by
> any steam or electric locomotive. These
> include 3902-3904, 3908-3909, 4792-4799,
> 4945-4994, 5000, 5550-5683, 5750-5799,
> 5801-5937, 5941-6000, 6101-6109, 6112-6129,
> 6132-6149, 7000, 9456-9529, 9688-9699,
> 9797-9799, 9896-9899, and 10000 (not
> intended to be an exhaustive list).

> When diesels arrived, some of them got
> numbers from these vacancies that steamers
> never wore, and in other cases (and this
> happened on B&O, too), steamers were
> renumbered to avoid conflicts in making room
> for blocks of diesel numbers. The road
> number 5000 was never carried by any PRR
> engine (but under Penn Central, it was an
> ex-New Haven EMD FL9); 7000 was not used
> until 1955, when a GP9 (PRR's
> "class" GP9) got that number; and
> the various 6100-series numbers noted above
> were finally applied to EMD SD40s and SD45s
> in the 1960s.

> Dan Cupper
> Harrisburg, Pa.

Dan: Thanks one more time! And you came up with another eye opener; a whole bunch of numbers that were NEVER used! I never would have guessed that. Also was a bit surprised about the five digit numbers (up to 10003) but I guess with all those engines, even something like that had to happen.

Les

midlandblb@cs.com

>Also was a bit surprised
> about the five digit numbers (up to 10003)
I think they were the experimental Electrics
from the early 1900s. I think there are photos of 10003 under temporary catenary on the West Jersey & Seashore.

104577.651@compuserve.com