Matt Conrad responded to the "B6sa in Delaware" thread below(see PRACTICAL restorations), by discussing the topic of organizations putting money toward restoration of large mainline steamers, which quite likely may not have a place to run, VS. money being put toward smaller, branchline steamers, which have a better chance of running off of steam-fearing Class 1s. This kind of got me thinking about the one Class 1 that embraces steam and its heritage - the UP. My question is, since UP seems to be more enthusiastic about steam, are they TOTALLY opposed to a mainline steamer from a foreign road making an occasional jaunt onto their rails? I am completely aware that one of the main issues here is insurance, and the fact that one of the reasons UP steam is available is because it's steam that BELONGS TO THE UP. I am just curious as to how hardline they would be -- it seems if any Class 1 were to give a private group mainline steamer a shot on welded rail, it would be the UP. Let me know what you guys think. Thanks. Seth

Wilmington & Western RR
sethajackson@hotmail.com

> This kind of got me thinking about the
> one Class 1 that embraces steam and its
> heritage - the UP.

Oh, so Canadian Pacific is not a class one? Seems to me they will be running their engine a lot more miles than UP will this year :>)

2816 shots on trainorders.com

> Oh, so Canadian Pacific is not a class one?
> Seems to me they will be running their
> engine a lot more miles than UP will this
> year :>)

No, they will have similar milage by the time the year is over. And UP has been at it a little longer than CP has---this is UP's 43rd year!

UP has a policy that dates back to the 1960's: NO steam on their railroad except their own steam. They don't run steam just for sake of steam; they run it for a purpose, and opening up the road to every itinerant steam group isn't part of that policy.

That said, Matt has a point in that there are engines out there right now into which many dollars and hours are being put that will either never run at all, or will run only once every 5 or 6 years, if that often.

When irrational enthusiasm collides head on with harsh reality, it's usually not a pretty sight.

>
> UP has a policy that dates back to the
> 1960's: NO steam on their railroad except
> their own steam. They don't run steam just
> for sake of steam; they run it for a
> purpose, and opening up the road to every
> itinerant steam group isn't part of that
> policy.

This policy was developed before the UP had swallowed up all the other class ones with surviving steam, like the SP and its subsidaries. The 4449, 2472,the 819 etc. are NOT "itinerant steam groups" but still can't run on UP rails. I believe it is time to rethink that criteria, although today it may be part of what seems to many to be a "scorched earth" approach by UP to any of their previous railroad companies' heritages.
S'
David D.

djdewey@cncnet.com

Lincoln, you made a passing glance at the main issue behind "foreign" steam on the UP, so let me try to hit the nail on the head. The UP uses steam to promote its own image, not that of predecessor road. It is justly proud of the Union Pacific name, and 844 and 3985 are used to promote that image. They feel that running an ex-SP engine would promote the image of that road, submerging the image of today's UP. It's their railroad, and that's how they choose to do it.

kevin.r.gillespie@verizon.net

Something else to remember about the CPR steam program is that they have it linked to a charity, Breakfast for Learning. They have a goal, "to ensure that every child in Canada attends school well nourished and ready to learn."

Education in a very important item in the news and feeding kids so they are not hungry at school is as good a cause as any.

If you look at all of the benifits to the CPR you will see they are getting a lot of out 2816.

First is the charity is supported.

Second they look good in the eyes of the public for doing these good deeds.

Third they are able to show off a rich history, more good PR here.

Fourth they are boosting morale as it seems that the employees are behind 2816 and Breakfast for Learning.

Last they get to impress who they feel they need to impress as the first two cars on our trip were for VIPs only.

So you see they NS never really took advantage of the steamers when they had them. The UP uses the steamers to promote it's own image. The CPR has taken it to a whole new level using the 2816 in ways that are new to railroading. Maybe they will set an example for the rest to follow.

Tom Gears

There is one steam engine that did run on UP rails, the Frisco 1522. The Frisco 1522 is stored at the Museum of Transport, which is off the Union Pacific main line. Whenever the Frisco 1522 left the Museum, we had a UP crew, and clearance to get to downtown St. Louis where we could transfer to BNSF rails. All this had to be negotiated, and paid for. OK, so that is not a significant distance, they could have embargoed the Frisco 1522, and trapped her in the Museum.

jim1522@aol.com

> There is one steam engine that did run on UP
> rails, the Frisco 1522. The Frisco 1522 is
> stored at the Museum of Transport, which is
> off the Union Pacific main line. Whenever
> the Frisco 1522 left the Museum, we had a UP
> crew, and clearance to get to downtown St.
> Louis where we could transfer to BNSF rails.
> All this had to be negotiated, and paid for.
> OK, so that is not a significant distance,
> they could have embargoed the Frisco 1522,
> and trapped her in the Museum.

What you say is true. I remember a 1522 and 844 doubleheader to the Museum as they left the NRHS convention in 1990. Great little morning!

UP has also been quite gracious enough to let 4449 and 700 out of the Brooklyn and Portland areas to connect with BNSF trackage where they can stretch their legs. So its not a TOTAL BAN!

Would I like to see the 4449 on former SP tracks to Sacramento....sure, but at least UP lets it out to go SOMEWHERE!

Most of all be thankful UP has 2 steamers running to start with. Any 844 was never retired after UP dieselized. Thats pretty incredible frankly in this day and age. Lets hope they keep the string going for many more decades. I always liked that engine, and first saw it in 1968, riding behind it doing 90 MPH at times.

Greg Scholl

Videos

sales@gregschollvideo.com

I'm sure everyone is aware of this, but the thread so far doesn't recognize it. That is, the fact that the BNSF has for years allowed private steam to operate on their railroad in a very open manner. I believe this is still true to this day. The only thing I'm aware of stopping the big steam from operating much, if at all, on the BNSF this year is the insurance, not railroad mood changes.
Having said that, I also think that even if the BNSF were to publicly state right now that they will no longer allow steam to operate on their property they still deserve a great deal of gratitude from all who have appreciated the steam that has run on their railroad. It's been a wonderful time, and we all know it. I only hope it will continue in the future.
Mark D.

> I'm sure everyone is aware of this, but the
> thread so far doesn't recognize it. That is,
> the fact that the BNSF has for years allowed
> private steam to operate on their railroad
> in a very open manner. I believe this is
> still true to this day. The only thing I'm
> aware of stopping the big steam from
> operating much, if at all, on the BNSF this
> year is the insurance, not railroad mood
> changes.
> Having said that, I also think that even if
> the BNSF were to publicly state right now
> that they will no longer allow steam to
> operate on their property they still deserve
> a great deal of gratitude from all who have
> appreciated the steam that has run on their
> railroad. It's been a wonderful time, and we
> all know it. I only hope it will continue in
> the future.
> Mark D.

Soo 2719 has had to traverse UP trackage to depart her home at Altoona, WI. I believe this has been done with a UP diesel accompanying her while on the property. Also, I rode a Soo 1003 trip from Fox Lake, IL, to Milton Jct, WI, that required her to use the UP(ex-C&NW) trackage through Janesville, WI. A Wisconsin and Southern unit was used to lead 1003 over the UP trackage that WSOR has right to operate on. So it appears that the UP is cooperative (as seen with 1522) to assist in allowing "land-locked" locomotives to access more receptive carriers. They could be really nasty and "nix" every more.
Don C.

milw261@sbcglobal.net

> This kind of got me thinking about the
> one Class 1 that embraces steam and its
> heritage - the UP.

Just a quick note to second Mark and Brian - CPR and BNSF are both allowing steam operations or sponsoring them. Amtrak has been involved with some moves as well.

> My question is are they TOTALLY opposed to a mainline
> steamer from a foreign road making an
> occasional jaunt onto their rails?

Again, as noted, "foreign" steam on UP isn't uncommon at all. Far from it.

4449 has run through the Feather River Canyon.

4449 and 700 and 197 sit on UP property in Portland.

1522 used UP to get to BNSF.

SP2472 and 2467 have both used UP rails to get to and from RailFairs.

SOO 1003 and 2719 use(d?) UP to get from Altoona to Wisconsin Central at Chippewa Falls.

There are probably more examples.

But if you're asking about UP allowing another locomotive to operate a public excursion on UP rails, the policy is "no."

JAC

CP too!!!! Seth

> Oh, so Canadian Pacific is not a class one?
> Seems to me they will be running their
> engine a lot more miles than UP will this
> year :>)



Wilmington & Western Railroad
sethajackson@hotmail.com

> This policy was developed before the UP had
> swallowed up all the other class ones with
> surviving steam, like the SP and its
> subsidaries. The 4449, 2472,the 819 etc. are
> NOT "itinerant steam groups" but
> still can't run on UP rails. I believe it is
> time to rethink that criteria, although
> today it may be part of what seems to many
> to be a "scorched earth" approach
> by UP to any of their previous railroad
> companies' heritages.
> S'
> David D.

Quite the contrary, David. The 4449, 819, 2472, 2467, et al were not owned by SP at the time of the mergers and had not been for decades. These are all privately-owned or museum owned (or government-owned, in 4449's case) locomotives.
SP never had a steam program, and never would have had one. If they had had one, the story might be very different.

The difference is thus: UP owns the locomotives, cars, track, crews, and liability and has total control over their own operations. The people who make it happen are all UP employees; the locomotives and cars are used to promote UP, to promote community relations, employee morale and all those other nice things. UP has been at it for so many years that when someone comes along and does something everyone thinks is "new," such as CP, it really isn't new at all.

Those other engines ARE run by itinerant steam groups. That is not a pejorative, it's simply an unpleasant fact. They exist to promote their own organizations or the history of long-gone railroads. It's usually volunteer, underfunded and often have few or no real railroaders in their ranks. Those things increase the potential liability, in the eyses of insurers and railroads. UP doesn't want that and doesn't need that. They have their own. Unlike the vast majority of other railroads.

And whoever said that just because a bunch of people band together and restore an engine that they are "owed" the "right" to operate it? Or that the devoted fans of that engine are owed a right to see it run whenever and wherever they desire?

Yes, kudos to Amtrak, BNSF and CP and the handful of others who do occasionally allow weekend warriors to play train on their tracks. But where is the criticism of NS, CSX, CN, KCS and others who don't? Why is UP the only villan?

> The UP uses the steamers to promote
> it's own image. The CPR has taken it to a
> whole new level using the 2816 in ways that
> are new to railroading. Maybe they will set
> an example for the rest to follow.

> Tom Gears

There really is nothing new under the sun.

There is nothing new about waht CPR is doing, except that it's CPR who is doing it. Not to take anything away from CPR, and you are absolutely correct about NS, but UP has been doing charity events, opera benefits, symphony orchestra benefits, museums (railroad and non-railroad), employee and family events, state and community centennials, Operation Lifesaver, Make-A-Wish, and many other things for decades with it's steam engines and trains. They also use their equipment for shipper specials, political events, and other things. And still manage to squeeze in a few foamer-oriented things each year, too.

> UP owns the RR, the engines and is responsible to stockholders for returns, to FRA, SEC, and a myriad of other government agencies for their operational and business compliance and to their customers for providing the best service possible. Finding anyway to have the 844/3985 fit that puzzle today has got to be a chore.

We the posters of RYPN, maybe incidental stockholders, don't generally buy rail services,aren't the FRA or SEC so.....

If they decide to paint the 844 pink and reletter the tender "LIONEL LINES", we should politely say thank you for seeing steam running in these perilous times, no matter what the reason for doing it.

Or are we ALREADY forgetting the fall of Fort Ohio Central?


superheater@rrmail.com