The thread on operable steam locomotives that predate 1900 had a post that caught my attention: Someone mentioned that Ward Kimball's plantation locomotive, Chloe, had a replica Baldwin builder's plate installed by Kimball in order to "backdate" the engine to 1883 (It apparently was actually built in 1907). The repro plate can be seen in this image:

http://trainweb.org/carl/OrangeEmpireRa ... G_1901.JPG

The plate Kimball used as a pattern for his 1883 allegedly came off a Hawaiian plantation locomotive.

Another 2-4-4 former Louisiana sugar plantation engine wears a similar plate today: The Fred Gurley at Disneyland. See the Gurley's current plate, below:

https://www.burnsland.com/sdra/images/d ... yFLS06.jpg

The engine that is now the Fred Gurley was built in 1894.

The similarity between the Chloe's plate and the Fred Gurley's is clearly unmistakable; the fact that Ward Kimball was likely involved with the Fred Gurley rebuild definitely has me suspicious, and casts doubt on the Gurley's plate style being authentic as well (with the understanding that the engine's current plates are fairly recent new castings based on the "originals").

The only plates I've ever seen that share the style of the Chloe and Gurley plates seem to have been Hawaiian exports. Was this a plate style used just for exports?

Additionally, I have seen a plate in a collection looking similar to the below style, except it didn't have the "U.S.A."...And the number was 14065 - the same as the number the Gurley currently has:

https://www.burnsland.com/gallery2/main ... alNumber=2

From what I can tell, the "Burnham, Williams Co." plates were the standard design of the period.

My question, then, is this: Can anyone tell me why, or for what reason, the first two plates look so different from the third style, which is obviously way more common? Could the Fred Gurley style have been original to the engine in 1894? Or do we have a case where Ward Kimball re-created a builder's plate for the Gurley using a more ornate style, and for which he already had a master pattern, only needing to change the serial number and the date? Since the engine had been re-built from the ground up for use as an amusement park ride, and wasn't meant to be a historic preservation project, perhaps it just seemed natural to "pretty up" the builder's plate as well?

Any thoughts on Baldwin builder's plate history and styles appreciated.

This is the plate I was referencing above. $15,000 seems a tad high, but I guess you never know.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/FRED-GURLEY-DISNEYLAND-STEAM-ENGINE-LOCOMOTIVE-BUILDERS-PLATE-GODCHAUX-SUGAR-1/401693230360?hash=item5d86c84518:g:peIAAOSwTxhcSPJE

Builders plates have lost a lot of value over the years. Most builders plates are averaging around $1,000 to $1,500. Even plates from the Cab forward and the Allegheny didn't even cross the $1,500 dollar mark. Many are selling for $700-$900. $15,000 dollars for a builders plate is absurd. I have never seen one go for anywhere near that price in the 18 years I have been buying stuff on Ebay.

In regards to the second photo. I have never seen that type of style used before for a Baldwin builders plate. You can research the Baldwin plates from that era, and the designs are pretty constant through the years and resemble the third photo. I would suspect the second photo is a reproduction. The color is way off. It looks to be made from copper.

The $15,000 builders plate looks like a fake. Painting a builders plate dramatically lowers its value. Although it is common to have serial numbers cast or punched on the back of a builders plate. That plate is the first one I have ever seen that has the gauge, and locomotive type punched into it. Very unusual and total unnecessary considering the builders plate was hard riveted to the locomotive. It is also suspicious that we can not see the original rivet holes due to the hanger on the back. Original rivet holes will show wear.

The number 14065 is lopsided. The S in Williams is smaller than the other numbers. Classic signs of a reproduction as the original caster does not want to spend time and money re-tooling the original mold. I can clearly see the original foundry casting holes at the 9 and 3 o clock positions on the back of the plate. Why are they darker than the other material around it? Could it be he first poured some slag into the mold to get the pitting and rust color and then poured in the brass? Who knows. It raises red flags all around and no return policy. Are you surprised? Check the hundreds of plates sold on Ebay and you can get a really good feel which ones are authentic.

Ok, I see you're referencing the first three pictures I posted in my first post. Yes, in the first photo, that style was used, but seemingly only for export engines. There are one or two in existence. This is part of my question.

In the second photo, the plate is brass, but it is a reproduction from the late 1950s, likely using a pattern from Ward Kimball. It has taken on that patina from the heat of the smokebox over the preceding 50 years.

The third photos is an authentic plate, I believe, but it is from 1902...not 1894, and eight years earlier the plate design might (and probably did) resemble the plate in the eBay auction.

Obviously, Baldwin did not do the stamping on the back. This was probably done by the plate's "first" owner, Dick Jackson, who owned a live steam backyard railroad in Beverly Hills and was one of Walt Disney's steam buddies. When he got the plates, he likely stamped them for posterity (remember, this was the late 1950s, and stuff like this was a dime a dozen. He probably painted it red, too. No one thought about "historical preservation."

The thought did cross my mind that it's a fake; not necessarily because of the style, but because of the quality of the letters in the casting. I believe the style to be typical of the era, but I'm not sure, which is why I posted this thread. Agree the price tag seems absurd.

Greetings:
I agree that only the plate in the third photo is real. I would however note that some Baldwin builder's plates have the Baldwin "class number" stamped on the back side of the plate. The class numbers are sequential within a particular "class", not to be confused with the construction number (sequential from the first Baldwin locomotive) which are cast into the front of the plate along with the date of construction and the legal name of the company at the time (Burnham Williams, Burnham Parry Williams, etc.)
J.David
PS: I too was initially fooled by the c/n which was on Ward's locomotive. It wasn't until I checked that number to the Baldwin list that I tumbled to discrepancy. JDC

On the Ebay plate it looks like "GODCHAUX - 1" was freehand engraved with a Dremel tool or similar. The other lettering appears to be stamped.

The attached photo is of a much later plate. I was told it had been on a Russian locomotive. Notice the poor alignment on the numbers. I suppose the misalignment could suggest a fake, but I suspect that they used a master pattern and applied different numbers for each locomotive. For some, the numbers were applied more carefully than for others.

Oddly, when looking for the correct design for the builder's plate for Alaska Railroad 557, I carefully searched several times through the drawing index for the group of 180 locomotives built under the same order. The builder's plate was about the only part for which I couldn't find a listing or drawing number. The other cast plates were listed, including the U.S. Army Transportation Corps I.D. plate with the USATC road number.

We were asked to appraise the Gerald Best builder's plate collection back in the 1980's. As we worked through the collection, a number of the early Baldwin plates were suspect in our eyes. We have found that Gerald Best had access to the Disney properties and found out that they made up a number of reproduction plates for their park locomotives. I would be careful on the plate listed on ebay. I would be pleased to take photos of any of my original early Baldwin plates for a comparison. I would simply ask you to send me a PM with your email address. I have been collecting plates since 1963 and have seen way too much reproductions plates in the past few years. I have found that I got stuck with a couple of them and it was not a real big deal when plate prices were very low.

Ron, can you confirm that this design was used by Baldwin? The plate itself is one of the repros Disney made, and clearly is different than the one in the eBay listing. Even so...is the style authentic? Perhaps only on export narrow gauge engines?

https://www.burnsland.com/sdra/images/d ... yFLS06.jpg

Steve - please send me a PM with your email address and I will send you a clear photo of my Baldwin #7705 1885 builder's plate. It is 7-3/4" in diameter and it is 100% original.

Thanks Ron, PM sent.

While it might not be desired by someone looking for a Baldwin builders plate,

I would imagine that a Ward Kimball designed Disney made plate might have significant value as Disneyana to collectors of Disneyana.

Not to mention that the Kimball plate being applied to Chloe is as much a part of her history as was the original plate - s unless she's going to be backdated to her pre- Kimball history, certainly the more appropriate plate to have on her.

I think you are absolutely correct.

Mr. Muldowney is right on target. Gerry Best did a lot of work for Ward Kimball since they both had locomotives at the Grizzly Flats RR. I would bet dollars to donuts that there is documentation on exactly what he did in Best's correspondence and papers in the California State RR Museum Library and Archives. I have copies of letters he wrote to other railfans and historians and he documents copying builder's plates in exquisite detail. He has lots of details on the railroad work he did for Disney, so any student of the Disney railroads needs to read Best's correspondence and go through his negatives. It would answer many questions, I'm sure.

I'm also guessing Mr. Muldowney did the appraisal of the Best builder's plate donation for the Smithsonian, as I was told by former curators there that a huge number of the plates in that donation were Baldwin.

K.R. Bell

Going the other way, Ward KImball doctored a BLW builder's photo to create a non-existing view for one of Best's books .