> First, there are clubs that are highly
> social in nature, and exist for regular
> gatherings of comradery and sharing of
> stories and photos or slides. They make a
> conscious effort to recruit new and younger
> members and are not necessarily aligned with
> any national organization.

> Second are clubs that exist largely to
> preserve a particular site, collection or
> artifact. The future health of many of these
> groups is dependent on being able to operate
> their equipment.

Great post!

May I suggest that the organizations that seem to be thriving tend to exhibit both of the qualities listed above. It appears the non-aligned (i.e. non national railfan groups) specialized groups fit in these categories, such as the C&O Historical Society and Friends of EBT. Perhaps the general interest group is easily replaced by books, video and the internet?

Tim

Erie Lackawanna Dining Car Preservation Society

> Great post!

I second that sentiment...

Your comments about the railroads not caring about the railfans or the general public rings home. Just this week I emailed two major railroads regarding some basic info on a tape I am working on. A few weeks back one RR returned with some useful stuff on their web site, but never responded to follow-ups, and the second railroad never responded period.
On the flip side, we had some shots of the Loram
Rail Grinder and those folks went out of their way to be most accomodating, and answered all my questions. We will have a great spot on this unique piece of equipment, and maybe ho-hum info on the railroads themselves! They just don't care...and I suppose who can blame them in most cases! Railfans and videos, and clubs, and excursions all get in the way of their real work...and making money for them. Sadly today, we have little enteraction with railroad personel. Its not like the old days when dad would take you down to the depot and chat with the agent and he gave us free stuff like cardboard cutouts of N&W coal cars, and pictures of N&W steam. Only way you can interact with a railroader is perhaps a stopped train when someone climbs down from a locomotive. Things have changed drastically over the past say 30 years. Few towers, fewer depots, few passenger trains, no cabooses, and track crews working from hi-rail trucks.
This is all one reason I decided to work on some vintage material, while there are still a few potential customers. The hobby is tougher to enjoy since the experience is not the same as it once was!
Greg Scholl

Videos
sales@gregschollvideo.com

> My suggestion for Orange Empire is that they
> convince younger people from the Eaast to
> move to
> California!

Come on down, but bring your RV. Houses average over $270,000 in CA.


wyld@sbcglobal.net

I believe that the railroads ignore the public at their peril. What the NIMBY's are trying to do with the New Hope & Ivyland, and the rails-to-trails Fascists want to do with the WMSR is only a symptom of what faces the hobby and the industry if the Class I's don't do more PR than just Op Lifesaver and the occasional town festival. Yes, it takes effort and resoures, and it's easier for the company bulls to just kick everyone off the property using terrorist concerns as an excuse, but hey, large corporations don't have many friends, and maybe they shouldn't turn away their natural constituencies.

As for the no need to have broad national organizations option, I'd really hate to see that happen, although it is a distinct possibility. They just have to find a way to become more relevent to those new to the hobby. It is only through the large national groups that we as railfans and preservationists will have enough mass and influence to accomplish significant works.

pww57@hotmail.com

> It is only through the large national
> groups that we as railfans and
> preservationists will have enough mass and
> influence to accomplish significant works.

I have to disagree ... From my personal experience I have seen greed motivated grassroots opposition do its best to try and destroy a project ... and local political connections save it. You have to be a working viable part of the community you choose to perform in, like any good neighbor, in order to succeed. This is from a guy that has been labeled by one local editor as a "scoundrel attempting to feed at the public trough". Believe it or not, the pols read the papers and attempt to gauge public opinion through editorials and letters to the editor. The very word "hobby" and "rail buff" drive me up a wall and are to be avoided. Most operations have invested hundreds of thousands of dollars in their locations and should be operated and treated like any other business in the area ... this also means that you must be involved like any other business and constantly trumpet and increase your benefits and good points. Please note that this does not mean that your "business" is isolated trom the "trade organizations" within that business ... get involved with them also, most businesses do. Turn your "club" into a viable business and your chances of success and meaningful growth are vastly increased.


lamontdc@adelphia.net

>>the rails-to-trails Fascists

We may be at odds with them over specific properties, but the Rails-to-Trails people have a well-thought-out program, a top-notch lobbying shop in Washington DC, and a great history of turning out volunteers for trail maintenance. The single biggest reason we have ISTEA/TEA-21 Transportation Enhancements money is their lobbying, not ours--we (by which I mean ARM, TRAIN, the NRHS, the R&LHS, or any other organization in our community) have never to the best of my knowledge lifted a finger to perpetuate the program that has been our biggest fiscal infusion in a generation.

Rails to Trails are not fascists. They are a similar group of private enthusiasts whose organizing and political skills run rings around us, and cause us to consistently lose out to them when we go head to head.

And for that, shame on us, not on them.


eledbetter@rypn.org

Here in Portland, OR, the states first "Rails and Trails" "park" had its big official opening a couple of weeks ago. While the situation is probably different with each case, I can say having the trail installed beside the rail has prooven to be a huge benefit. The railroad owner was able to relay 3 miles of heavy rail and newer ties, replacing worn out 75lb rail. The city was able to get access to a wonderful wetland. An the rail groups in Portland were able to now use this line with double headed 4-8-4's, something that would not have been possible just a few years ago. The train passengers interact with the people on the path, almost like the train is on parade. The only people I can see having the big problem with this type of set up is the photographers who want a "pure" picture, but now have to deal with having a fence on one side.

The trail is an asset in the Portland operation.

My two cents....

Smokebox

"orhf dot org"

I realize every location and project represents a different experience, and in fact I know that there are those who are both railfans and bicyclists. There was an important occasion within the last decade or so when the rails-to-trails people butted heads with the railroad community in my area and totally shut us out. In the late '80's an effort was launched to turn the Georgetown Branch of the B&O (Georgetown Jct. [Silver Spring] - to NW DC) into a tourist RR. For those not familiar with it, it is the line that the Smithsonian used to operate the John Bull for it's 150th birthday in '82. The R-T-T people fought the effort at every turn and won, turning the line into "The Capital Crescent Trail", precluding the possibility of any rail line, and they continue to fight against using the remaining ROW from Bethesda to G'Town Jct. for a light rail project to connect with Metro Rail and MARC at Silver Spring. There is more to it than that, the light rail project is controversial on more than one level, and the ROW does not lend itself to shared use - it had to be one or the other, so the trail people won. They are an extremely well organized group, and could very well serve as a model for efforts by the NRHS and R&LHS to lobby for saving things like the WM Scenic. Maybe we need to take our cues from an organization like NARP - which has been successful in fighting a holding action to keep Amtrak going for over 30 years, whatever your political views on that are.

This leads me to the hobby vs. business debate. Every time I see something in the media about railroads that is not related to some accident or budget battle over Amtrak, it is couched in a very nostalgic, wistful tone - as if it is something lost and not here and thriving. I think that that perception in the media hurts us as serious preservationists. Maybe we should in fact adopt the rail passenger advocate mantra of being "rail professionals" - at least when dealing with the public and media, and quit "foaming" about trains.

I hadn't thought about this before I started writing - that's what an exchange of ideas is all about - but maybe a role that the national organizations could play to make them more relevent is that of supporting local preservation efforts through professional consulting and lobbying help. We need our own version of NARP Executive Dir. Ross Capon and our own Jack Martin - the late NARP President who was a powerful executive in his own right, and who could go toe- to-toe with Graham Claytor and company.

I don't think we have to put away the the funny hats and badges totally - it certainly doesn't hurt the Dems. and Reps. every four years - but the faces out front in the media need to be professional and polished, not some barely functional idiot who sounds like Rain Man.

The press coverage for the convention last week in Baltimore was virtually non-existant, outside of the article in the Cumberland paper on the Amtrak trip to the WMSR. As far as I know, we were ignored in Baltimore by the press, which means that for the vast majority of the public we didn't exist (not even a Don Phillips' piece in the Washington Post - and he's one of us for crying out loud). If we cease to be relevent to the public we can pretty much forget about saving much of anything in the long run - other interest groups, like developers, and the R-T-T folks with more influence will carry the day.

So this is the challenge to the leaders of the previously mentioned national groups. They need to redefine their roles of leadership in RR preservation, set the standards for local efforts, and provide professional support for local projects. The first order of business is probably developing closer ties with groups like the National Trust for Historic Preservation, an organization that has some clout in saving historic places and artifacts. We also need better on-going relationships with the major railroads, so that local chapters don't get stonewalled on running trips until it's too late to work things out.

It's going to take people far smarter and better connected than this lowly T&E employee to get these things done - I just answer the phone when Jacksonville calls, but I'll do what I can as time permits. (Those of you who are, or have been, active-duty railroaders understand this better than anyone else). Hopefully, some futher discussion and evolution of ideas will come of this.

pww57@hotmail.com

Just think of this for one minute. Most of the trail users on the Rails-to-Trails projects do not have to purchase insurance to be in the trail business, while all of the rail users do. Within the present insurance environment, where does that leave the rail users?

Also, if they share right of way, and the trail user is injured, who is he going to sue? The lobbying group in Washington DC who got the trail, or the other user of the ROW, the railroad?

Steve Zuiderveen

SZuidervee@aol.com

In the case of the Portland "Rails and Trails", both ROWs are sperated by a chain link fence. If a person decides to climb over the fence, that person is now trespassing on the RR ROW. The person then would be subject to normal trespassing laws.

Smokebox

> Also, if they share right of way, and the
> trail user is injured, who is he going to
> sue? The lobbying group in Washington DC who
> got the trail, or the other user of the ROW,
> the railroad?

> Steve Zuiderveen


"orhf dot org"

I concur with your assessment. While we have some talented and professional people out there laboring away, the stereotype of the railfan or former has a negative impact. The organization that puts on a professional front to the media, government, public, and other business entities is at an advantage. Besides conducting themselves in a professional manner, they need to operate in a professional manner. Sometimes we are our own worst enemy. For instance, look how many instances we have seen on this board alone that pertain to organizational infighting. I can think of a good example myself, and I can't think of any advantages such machinations bring. Granted consensus is indicative of an absence of leadership, but when the constructive arguments manifestate into fighting, we are all in trouble. Here's an example, I could care less if such and such locomotive is displayed at museum A or museum B, as long as it is saved, restored, and properly displayed we all win. We all know there's power in numbers, so let's do more than preach it.

God Bless,
Gerald W. Kopiasz

PS: Be careful with the media--be sure to avoid them portraying you as "played with toy trains when you were young and now you are playing with big trains."

> I realize every location and project
> represents a different experience, and in
> fact I know that there are those who are
> both railfans and bicyclists. There was an
> important occasion within the last decade or
> so when the rails-to-trails people butted
> heads with the railroad community in my area
> and totally shut us out. In the late '80's
> an effort was launched to turn the
> Georgetown Branch of the B&O (Georgetown
> Jct. [Silver Spring] - to NW DC) into a
> tourist RR. For those not familiar with it,
> it is the line that the Smithsonian used to
> operate the John Bull for it's 150th
> birthday in '82. The R-T-T people fought the
> effort at every turn and won, turning the
> line into "The Capital Crescent
> Trail", precluding the possibility of
> any rail line, and they continue to fight
> against using the remaining ROW from
> Bethesda to G'Town Jct. for a light rail
> project to connect with Metro Rail and MARC
> at Silver Spring. There is more to it than
> that, the light rail project is
> controversial on more than one level, and
> the ROW does not lend itself to shared use -
> it had to be one or the other, so the trail
> people won. They are an extremely well
> organized group, and could very well serve
> as a model for efforts by the NRHS and
> R&LHS to lobby for saving things like
> the WM Scenic. Maybe we need to take our
> cues from an organization like NARP - which
> has been successful in fighting a holding
> action to keep Amtrak going for over 30
> years, whatever your political views on that
> are.

> This leads me to the hobby vs. business
> debate. Every time I see something in the
> media about railroads that is not related to
> some accident or budget battle over Amtrak,
> it is couched in a very nostalgic, wistful
> tone - as if it is something lost and not
> here and thriving. I think that that
> perception in the media hurts us as serious
> preservationists. Maybe we should in fact
> adopt the rail passenger advocate mantra of
> being "rail professionals" - at
> least when dealing with the public and
> media, and quit "foaming" about
> trains.

> I hadn't thought about this before I started
> writing - that's what an exchange of ideas
> is all about - but maybe a role that the
> national organizations could play to make
> them more relevent is that of supporting
> local preservation efforts through
> professional consulting and lobbying help.
> We need our own version of NARP Executive
> Dir. Ross Capon and our own Jack Martin -
> the late NARP President who was a powerful
> executive in his own right, and who could go
> toe- to-toe with Graham Claytor and company.

> I don't think we have to put away the the
> funny hats and badges totally - it certainly
> doesn't hurt the Dems. and Reps. every four
> years - but the faces out front in the media
> need to be professional and polished, not
> some barely functional idiot who sounds like
> Rain Man.

> The press coverage for the convention last
> week in Baltimore was virtually
> non-existant, outside of the article in the
> Cumberland paper on the Amtrak trip to the
> WMSR. As far as I know, we were ignored in
> Baltimore by the press, which means that for
> the vast majority of the public we didn't
> exist (not even a Don Phillips' piece in the
> Washington Post - and he's one of us for
> crying out loud). If we cease to be relevent
> to the public we can pretty much forget
> about saving much of anything in the long
> run - other interest groups, like
> developers, and the R-T-T folks with more
> influence will carry the day.

> So this is the challenge to the leaders of
> the previously mentioned national groups.
> They need to redefine their roles of
> leadership in RR preservation, set the
> standards for local efforts, and provide
> professional support for local projects. The
> first order of business is probably
> developing closer ties with groups like the
> National Trust for Historic Preservation, an
> organization that has some clout in saving
> historic places and artifacts. We also need
> better on-going relationships with the major
> railroads, so that local chapters don't get
> stonewalled on running trips until it's too
> late to work things out.

> It's going to take people far smarter and
> better connected than this lowly T&E
> employee to get these things done - I just
> answer the phone when Jacksonville calls,
> but I'll do what I can as time permits.
> (Those of you who are, or have been,
> active-duty railroaders understand this
> better than anyone else). Hopefully, some
> futher discussion and evolution of ideas
> will come of this.


hrrhs@aol.com

> In the case of the Portland "Rails and
> Trails", both ROWs are sperated by a
> chain link fence.
> Smokebox
1. that was an eye opener and proves that the two can co-exist.
2. RtoT is great when used properly to keep ROW intact for future use (already had one county planner that was not adverse to changing part of a trail back to encourage industrial development).
3. The worst nutsy example I ever ran across was a consultant that had the nerve to stand up in a rail development meeting and suggest that RtoT would have a greater economic development impact then reopening a railroad because more federal funds were available for the trail then for the rail. Fortunately she was given the cold shoulder, the railroad reopened, expanded and is performing magnificently for the area.
4. If you think that "we" are unorganized you should sit in on a "trail" meeting and listen to the discussion of trail construction and uses. Things like ... I love to ride my mountain bike up and down the embankments ... walkers and vehicle riders don't like stepping thru horse manure ... the horse folks look down on everyone else (pun)... trail protocol ...speed limits ...etc.
5. As long as it is "hobby" vs "trail" your options are limited, when it goes to "business" vs "trail" a whole new face is put to the arguement.


lamontdc@adelphia.net

> 1. that was an eye opener and proves that
> the two can co-exist.

I attended a symposium on the subject of Rails/Trails at the TRAIN/ARM convention at Spencer two years ago. It was pointed out that the Alaska Railroad and a trail co-exist on its south end with the chain link fence as described. The locals continually cut a hole in it (and the Railroad kept patching up) for shortcut access. A youth got caught by a train and lost a limb for his efforts. While the Railroad eventually prevailed, it was only after $250,000 in legal fees defending itself. This would be enough to put a lot of small operations out of business.

Steve Zuiderveen

SZuidervee@aol.com