At last night's Baltimore Chapter NRHS meeting, a member of the B&O Museum relayed several bits of information not yet necessarily released to the general public. This member was repeating information discussed at volunteer meetings, and is a rather reliable source, but the info below should still be considered unofficial pending confirmation.

*"B&O 10 and 20", the wooden coach and baggage car, will NOT be rebuilt. Estimates for restoration ran almost to the eight-figure mark; a complete replica (with modern adaptations for service) would be in the low six figures. There's still unrestored 21 in the Car Shop.

*Nine Pangborn models were severely damaged: "Buffalo", "Mount Clare", "Costellis", "Johnson", "James", "Campbell", and "Remodeled York". A photo of the "Buffalo" shows an unrecognizable pile of rubble.

*Steel roof trusses, fabricated locally, are being installed as I type. The trusses include attached rivets and trim to mimic the old cast iron trusses. After erection of the new roof, the old roof will be dismantled two stall sections at a time for its replacement (the same snowfall damaged the integrity of the surviving roof).

*It has been learned that there is also roof damage to the office/library section of the Mt. Clare Station and the old print shop (the current entrance and display space). This will have to be addressed.

*After weighing the various options, the decision has been made to erect a new ($10 million +)restoration hall out on the First Mile, *possibly* incorporating part of the concrete shell of a shop building already existing out there. It is hoped that the building can be erected to incorporate historic elements of design and appearance, but it will house such modern things as drop pits, sandblasting, and paint booths. The decision was made NOT to incorporate such reconstruction to the current restoration shop (the Car Shop adjacent to the Roundhouse) because the modifications would have rendered the building non-historic. The Car Shop hopefully will become additional display space in the future, rather than the combined storage/restoration function it has served as before the collapse.

*There is serious damage to the floor of the roundhouse and the turntable pit, from the snow and sprinklers of the collapse and the near-continuous rain this spring. Reportedly, forces have worn out two sump pumps trying to keep the turntable pit (and its wooden framing) pumped dry during the exceedingly-rainy spring and summer. In addition, high winds have blown out additional windows and forced evacuation of the roundhouse a couple times.

*Re-examination of the Roundhouse by officials has led to the realization that, unless dramatic changes are made to the structure, the Roundhouse's function as one of Baltimore's largest banquet halls and meeting rooms (hosting as many as 2,000 in the past) may have to be SEVERELY restricted--as in a sharp reduction in the legal capacity of the facility. This, if it occurs, will dramatically impact the Museum's fund-raising ability.

*In a totally unrelated development, the B&O Museum recently lost a lawsuit brought by a wheelchair-bound "railfan" over Americans with Disabilities Act compliance. The long and short of it, according to the member who spoke last night, was that the B&O Museum will be forced to incorporate ADA changes into the Museum's restoration--an additional expense. In addition, the compromises between the historic nature of the old structure and the changes mandated COULD mean that sections of the historic buildings--such as the upstairs library and the model railroad layout--will have to be relocated and/or made off limits to the public.

*After five attempts to set an opening date, the Museum is apparently not saying anything now (remember the chalk on Strasburg's 475: "DON'T ASK WHEN!"?) regarding a reopening date; however, officials seem adamant that upon reopening the FULL facility will be reopen to the public, not a partial reopening. (Some wild-fannied guesses are being made at next July.)

Personally, having heard the information I have so far, I am personally estimating that the B&O Museum will have a $20-25 million shortfall to address, between additional costs and uninsured work ahead. Start the fundraising.

B&O Museum website
LNER4472@bcpl.net

I would like to note that at the NRHS Convention in Baltimore two officials from the Museum discussed these points to the public (although I see some assumptions have been made here), so this is not necessarily "secret" news. In fact, I recall an article about the new restoration building in the Baltimore Sun about a month ago. I wish them luck and hope they can raise enough money to get back on thier feet!

pd45673@hotmail.com

> I would like to note that at the NRHS
> Convention in Baltimore two officials from
> the Museum discussed these points to the
> public (although I see some assumptions have
> been made here), so this is not necessarily
> "secret" news.

*I never said the news was "secret"--in fact, some of the information I reiterated came directly from an eight-page glossy brochure put out by the B&O Museum for (among other uses) the NRHS Convention visitors.

The problem is that the B&O Museum reports have in the past tended to often be, shall we say, a bit at odds with direct observations, and I have been openly and directly criticized in the past for stating "facts" that weren't necessarily agreed upon by Museum officials (um, hello? Are we *finally* able to say that cars 10 and 20 were "destroyed", or is that STILL too harsh a description?). Heck, I'll be amazed if certain people don't read this and attempt to reprimand the member that gave us this information last night.

Indeed, as another example, I'm STILL waiting for anyone to get back to me with a list of the artifacts stolen from the Museum just days before the roof collapse. Contrast this with the widely-disseminated list of articles stolen from the Strasburg RR enginghouse at about the same time--disseminated by the Strasburg itself within hours.

B&O Museum website
LNER4472@bcpl.net

If there is going to be a $25 million plus fundraising effort for the B&O Museum over the next several years I would suspect that many other rail-related fund raising efforts will suffer because of the importance and publicity the B&O effort will get.

jmg@unitedweb.net

> If there is going to be a $25 million plus
> fundraising effort for the B&O Museum
> over the next several years I would suspect
> that many other rail-related fund raising
> efforts will suffer because of the
> importance and publicity the B&O effort
> will get.

I doubt it, actually. Money on that scale will come mostly from donors outside our community, who would not have been tapped for, say, a railroad museum project in the Midwest or Northwest. It certainly won't come from small railfan philanthopy. No, I think you're looking at State money, Federal money, and Baltimore- and Maryland-based business and foundation money.

I find this entire thread dispiriting, because I do not like to see this forum used as a means of propagating hearsay, especially of the critical variety. However, that is my purely personal, not official opinion.


eledbetter@rypn.org

> I find this entire thread dispiriting,
> because I do not like to see this forum used
> as a means of propagating hearsay,
> especially of the critical variety. However,
> that is my purely personal, not official
> opinion.

Trust me, Erik, I'm not thrilled about it, either--all it does is make me look like a B&O Museum rumor-monger as well as someone kicking them while they're down.

But the fact is that it's particularly difficult to get what Paul Harvey calls "the REST of the story" from the B&O Museum's mouth at times. Sometimes the information is of somewhat negligible importance--such as the eventual fate of certain exhibits damaged in the collapse (although, as we've seen here, even that importance can be relative). But there can be other issues that can directly impact ALL of us as well. For example, while I agree with you that their fundraising will be mostly local, the question of whether that need for monies will affect other places (Western Md. Scenic? Steamtown? grant programs?) is at least partially valid and worth consideration. And the news of that ADA lawsuit loss--which I would wager I could never pry from official sources if I tried--hovers like that giant 16-ton weight over ALL of us.

However much we may dislike it, the larger a player in a field you are, the bigger an impact your operations have on others in the field, and the more it's possible to have to undertake the unpopular and debatable. The B&O Museum, by virtue of its size, stature, and heritage, is one of the 700-poung gorillas of our avocation, and inevitably not everything comes up roses for them. I certainly can't expect the bluntness of Norman Schwarzkopf or Jesse Ventura from B&O officials, but we don't want the Iraqi information minister, either.

LNER4472@bcpl.net

Sandy qualified his posting so we all know what we are reading. Whether or not we should consider it critical is certainly subjective.....and critical of whom is another value judgement.

From a POV of the outside looking in, I am pleased to know the current state of thought up there, and it seems to me from my remote vantage point that they are moving in some rational directions, particularly regarding their restoration shop choices.

However, also from my limited information I am left to wonder about the two wooden cars. I wasn't aware there was a RFP put out on their restoration. Given the cost of labor isn't high in the southeast, I might have been able to provide some costs which would have made the project possible in Georgia or Alabama.

Again, not my museum or my decision. Best wishes to the staff as they continue to deal with a very difficult set of circumstances.

dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

> But the fact is that it's particularly
> difficult to get what Paul Harvey calls
> "the REST of the story" from the
> B&O Museum's mouth at times.

Matter of opinion I suppose. I find them reasonably forthcoming on the whole--certainly not the blue ribbon winner among all railroad museums for absolute openness, but not bad either.

To name good examples, RRM of Pa wins hands down for having the most outgoing press office I have experienced, and Orange Empire, Spencer and IRM benefit from active volunteers who keep the Internet world informed of their doings. But B&O is, in my personal experience, no more or less forthcoming that CSRM, to name one, and much more so than many mid-sized museums I never hear a peep from.

On the rare occaisions when I have asked the B&O to comment to me on the record, I've had no trouble getting a return call and a quote.

But there can
> be other issues that can directly impact ALL
> of us as well. For example, while I agree
> with you that their fundraising will be
> mostly local, the question of whether that
> need for monies will affect other places
> (Western Md. Scenic? Steamtown? grant
> programs?) is at least partially valid and
> worth consideration.

While we can certainly discuss it, I'd argue that there's not much substance to it on several grounds. This line of argument assumes that railroad preservation funding is more or less a zero sum game, and money to the B&O comes out of some other railroad preservation effort's pocket.

First, my argument is essentially that the B&O will be tapping most major gifts from funders who are not regular supporters of railroad preservation. It may come out of preservation as a whole in some cases (if the B&O is so fortunate as to get a huge Save America's Treasures grant I guess some historic house somewhere goes without) but it does not come directly at the expense of others in our movement.

Even within Maryland, if the B&O gets money from the Legislature in these tough times, I highly doubt they will fund it by zeroing in on Western Maryland Scenic and zeroing them out--pissing off the western Maryland congressional delegation en mass. More likely they fund both, and we run a bigger defecit which comes out of my pocket I guess.

Third, even if it WERE a zero sum game is that not the market at work? I may write a bigger personal check to the B&O this year, and I may reluctantly not fund something else, or cut back. But if I do, I do it becuase I thought this year, all things being equal, the B&O actually needed it the most. I will have assessed where I can get the most bang for my preservation buck and chosen accordingly.

Lastly, what charity has ever based its fundraising plan on the potential impact on competing charities? Does the National Gallery of Art not raise money becuase it might hurt the Corcoran? Or Children's Hospital hold off becuase it might hurt Sibley (sorry, Washington DC hospital references)? Everybody competes in the charitable marketplace, and may the best case win.

And the news of that
> ADA lawsuit loss--which I would wager I
> could never pry from official sources if I
> tried--hovers like that giant 16-ton weight
> over ALL of us.

When did it become a public obligation to comment affirmatively on private litigation?

I certainly can't expect the bluntness
> of Norman Schwarzkopf or Jesse Ventura from
> B&O officials, but we don't want the
> Iraqi information minister, either.

In my experience there is no fair comparison between the B&O's people and Mr. Muhammed Saeed al-Sahaf. That's just a drive-by.


eledbetter@rypn.org

While we can certainly discuss it, I'd argue
> that there's not much substance to it on
> several grounds. This line of argument
> assumes that railroad preservation funding
> is more or less a zero sum game, and money
> to the B&O comes out of some other
> railroad preservation effort's pocket.

*Personally, I for one recognize this. But the fact of the matter is that in this current economy, there are fewer dollars out there for ALL worthy projects to pursue. I saw a piece in the Washington Post on Sunday (which I came oh-so-close to posting here) about how Smithsonian gifts and donations, particularly the big eight-figure ones, are way down in the past year.

We need to have the discussion, whether or not we even agree on the need for the discussion.

> First, my argument is essentially that the
> B&O will be tapping most major gifts
> from funders who are not regular supporters
> of railroad preservation. It may come out of
> preservation as a whole in some cases (if
> the B&O is so fortunate as to get a huge
> Save America's Treasures grant I guess some
> historic house somewhere goes without) but
> it does not come directly at the expense of
> others in our movement.

> Even within Maryland, if the B&O gets
> money from the Legislature in these tough
> times

*As a fellow Marylander--hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha..........

, I highly doubt they will fund it by
> zeroing in on Western Maryland Scenic and
> zeroing them out--pissing off the western
> Maryland congressional delegation en mass.
> More likely they fund both, and we run a
> bigger defecit which comes out of my pocket
> I guess.

> Third, even if it WERE a zero sum game is
> that not the market at work? I may write a
> bigger personal check to the B&O this
> year, and I may reluctantly not fund
> something else, or cut back. But if I do, I
> do it becuase I thought this year, all
> things being equal, the B&O actually
> needed it the most. I will have assessed
> where I can get the most bang for my
> preservation buck and chosen accordingly.

> Lastly, what charity has ever based its
> fundraising plan on the potential impact on
> competing charities? Does the National
> Gallery of Art not raise money becuase it
> might hurt the Corcoran? Or Children's
> Hospital hold off becuase it might hurt
> Sibley (sorry, Washington DC hospital
> references)? Everybody competes in the
> charitable marketplace, and may the best
> case win.

> And the news of that

> When did it become a public obligation to
> comment affirmatively on private litigation?

1) Although I did not get specifics on the B&O Museum case, the other cases I have had experience with were based (rightly or wrongly--ain't playing judge here) on two principles: tax-exempt status of the organization; and degree of public funding (via grants, etc.) extended to the institution in question.

The net that these litigants have been casting is so wide that, just to make up wild and crazy examples, they might try to sue the owners of a private parlor car offered for public charter IF any "public" monies had ever been contributed to its upkeep, demanding that the car be made fully ADA compliant. (Yes, I have a specific car in mind.)

(Hmmmmmmm............ you know, maybe the Kovalchiks know what they're doing after all.......

> In my experience there is no fair comparison
> between the B&O's people and Mr.
> Muhammed Saeed al-Sahaf. That's just a
> drive-by.

Agreed. Cheap shot. I've never heard them deny that the roof fell in. However, I *have* heard denials of brazenly obvious "facts"--like one individual stoically sticking to the "party line" and denying that the wooden coaches were "destroyed"........... huh?


lner4472@bcpl.net

> Agreed. Cheap shot. I've never heard them
> deny that the roof fell in. However, I
> *have* heard denials of brazenly obvious
> "facts"--like one individual
> stoically sticking to the "party
> line" and denying that the wooden
> coaches were
> "destroyed"........... huh?

Destroyed is in the a term that can be used in many different ways. We all know that they have saved all of the pieces that they could from the coach and the baggage car is still on its trucks. But how far does someone go to rebuild. They could rebuild it, but it would take a great deal of time and a WHOLE lot of money. Would it not be better to spend the time and money on the many other pieces that were less severly damaged? Would rebuilding cars that were so severly damaged mean that they are no longer artifacts but reproductions incorperating some of the original fabric of the cars?

I have visited the museum many times and am confident that there is employed there a staff of proffesionals that want to do what is best in order to care for as many of the pieces as possible. If you had a child and they were in a car accident, but they were still stuck in the wreckage when you arrived on the scene, even if you knew deep down that the child had been killed, wouldn't you cling to the hope that they were still alive until all possible hope had been exhausted? Those people's lives revolve around caring for those historic pieces, and I am certain that some of them feel that those historic pieces are their 'children'. As corney as it sounds, they were clinging to the hope that the cars were still ok, even though certain members of this online community were saying they were completly destoyed just days after the collapse, and having NOT been able to see them except for a couple of photos from the air in newspapers and on TV.

Let's let the staff of the museum do what we all know that they know how to do and look forward to the reopening of the museum. I for one am excited to see what they will do. IT CAN ONLY GET BETTER! and I think that it is going to be spectacular.

As far as comparing members of the museum staff to individuals from the government of a country that we are at war with...THAT IS UNCALLED FOR and as a member of the military I take serious offense to it. That was more than a cheep shot, it was down-right disrespectful and disgraceful and I hope that it is not something that will be repeated.

Again, let's give the museum the benifit of the doubt and wait to see what they do, before we sit here and 'armchair quarterback' without all of the information that they are basing their desisions off of.

BTW, I have lurked around this site for quite sometime, and I hope my next post will be in response to something more positive.

Thank you,

Dan

marinebubba2000@yahoo.com