TVRM Passenger Cars

southern154 · **Joined:** Mon Jun 24, 2013 12:54 pm **Posts:** 317

Does TVRM own the GTW Diner, SAL Observation car 6604, and the RF&P 857? I know they were owned by the Bluewater Chapter of the NRHS, and am confused if they are on long term lease or full ownership to TVRM.

In asking that, what was the need for them? Obviously they have served very well in the excursion program, but was there another need? Thanks for any information, and thanks to TVRM for their outstanding preservation efforts!

Heavenrich · **Joined:** Mon Aug 23, 2004 11:07 am **Posts:** 630

The last I heard, they're still owned by Bluewater and leased to TVRM and were used on some of the 21st century steam trips.

Bob H

Crescent-Zephyr · **Joined:** Wed Jan 20, 2016 1:15 pm **Posts:** 1717

I have seen them used regularly for Chickamauga Turn, and Summerville Steam excursions. The Dining Car gets used on the Dinner Trains too, to supplement the TVRM Diner.

ctjacks · **Posted:** Fri Mar 11, 2016 11:54 am

The diner (ex-GTW Silver Lake) and the Obs (ex-SAL 6604) are owned by Bluewater and on long-term lease. You would have to ask TVRM about their needs for them, but from Bluewater's standpoint, Bluewater's car-repair and excursion-operation division had its demise in 2010 or so, done in by declining membership, and the final blow when it lost its long-time home in the ex-PM roundhouse in Saginaw. The cars are much better off being taken care of in TN than on a siding somewhere in Michigan.

Chris.

Alexander D. Mitchell IV · **Posted:** Thu Oct 24, 2019 6:49 pm

UPDATE:

Bluewater Michigan, in the midst of liquidation, has donated SAL 6604 to The North Carolina Transportation Museum Foundation:

http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/20 ... ina-museum

(There should be no paywall on this item.)

Quote:

The North Carolina Transportation Museum Foundation, the support group for the museum, will be the recipient of the Seaboard Air Line (SAL) No. 6604, a streamlined passenger rail car from the post-World War II era. Built for SAL in 1947, the 85-foot stainless steel rail car features a tavern lounge, a bar, a hidden bedroom for hostesses, and a rounded observation section with swiveling chairs.

The donation comes from the Bluewater Michigan Chapter of the National Railway Historical Society. As the chapter plans to dissolve this year, new locations are being found for the chapter’s rail equipment. President John Moore says, “I’m happy to return this car to its home rails.” The No. 6604 had been a fixture on the Bluewater chapter’s rail excursions during the past three decades. . . .

Plans are still being finalized to move the No. 6604 to Spencer after its lease period at TVRM is completed.

More at the link.

Crescent-Zephyr · **Joined:** Wed Jan 20, 2016 1:15 pm **Posts:** 1717

One has to wonder why they wouldn't donate it to the non-profit museum that has been leasing it and using it for the past several years.

Brian Norden · **Posted:** Fri Oct 25, 2019 8:19 pm

Crescent-Zephyr wrote:

One has to wonder why they wouldn't donate it to the non-profit museum that has been leasing it and using it for the past several years.

Maybe because it was a Seaboard Air Line car that operated through North Carolina and not through Tennessee.

sou2404 · **Joined:** Wed Jun 19, 2013 5:56 pm **Posts:** 20

Don't be too upset, it's not like 6604 is being taken from an organization that has put a lot of money into the car and has several miles of scenic mainline to operate on and given to a tourist operation that has a few yards of track to run it back and forth on before they get tired of it and shove it into their massive "dead" yard.

Oh wait...

Get your tickets while you can!

Chris Webster · **Joined:** Sat Aug 25, 2007 12:45 am **Posts:** 1028

sou2404 wrote:

is being taken from an organization that has....several miles of scenic mainline to operate on and given to a tourist operation that has a few yards of track

I don't know the exact numbers, but it seems to me that the NCTM owns about as much track as the TVRR.

When I've ridden at Spencer, the run was about 1.5 miles down one side of the property, then back along a different 1.5 miles of track on the other side of the property. At Chattanooga, the Missionary Ridge turn is about 3 miles out, then back over the same 3 miles of track.

Crescent-Zephyr · **Joined:** Wed Jan 20, 2016 1:15 pm **Posts:** 1717

TVRM runs to Georgia (either Chickamauga or Summerville) almost every weekend.

Alexander D. Mitchell IV · **Posted:** Sat Oct 26, 2019 1:17 pm

If the operation of the car at TVRM is crucial to their operation, I see no reason that TVRM couldn't re-negotiate extending the lease when the car's lease is up. As long as NCTM retains long-term ownership and eventually gets it "back." It's just a different non-profit entity owning it, after all.

Of course, maybe NCTM sees more value in diversifying representation and bringing in a SAL streamlined car. That's for curators and a BOD to decide.

Chris Webster · **Joined:** Sat Aug 25, 2007 12:45 am **Posts:** 1028

Crescent-Zephyr wrote:

TVRM runs to Georgia (either Chickamauga or Summerville) almost every weekend.

On track owned by the State of Georgia: State of Georgia Railroad Map

I'm only mentioning this because of the mantra here that museums & heritage railways have to own their own land since that's the only way to guarantee longevity.

Crescent-Zephyr · **Joined:** Wed Jan 20, 2016 1:15 pm **Posts:** 1717

I thought we were talking about how the car can operate... not who owns what track? Ha.

And who said the car was essential to TVRM’s operation? It just seems odd to me that the car wouldn’t be donated to TVRM.

Heavenrich · **Joined:** Mon Aug 23, 2004 11:07 am **Posts:** 630

Alexander D. Mitchell IV wrote:

If the operation of the car at TVRM is crucial to their operation, I see no reason that TVRM couldn't re-negotiate extending the lease when the car's lease is up. As long as NCTM retains long-term ownership and eventually gets it "back." It's just a different non-profit entity owning it, after all.

Of course, maybe NCTM sees more value in diversifying representation and bringing in a SAL streamlined car. That's for curators and a BOD to decide.

From a previous message you posted....

"The donation comes from the Bluewater Michigan Chapter of the National Railway Historical Society. As the chapter plans to dissolve this year..."

Pretty hard to renew a lease when you're going out of business and there are some IRS regulations which come into play when a non profit does so.

Bob H

Topfuel · **Joined:** Sun Aug 29, 2004 4:49 pm **Posts:** 526

Just speculating, but I would assume it goes without saying that there were discussions between Bluewater and TVRM about TVRM receiving the donation due to the relationship already established between the two groups.

At any rate, those six SAL 1947 Budd-built tavern lounge observations are bitchin' cars and either way it's good to see this one still active.

Of interest, five of the six survive, but ironically, the remaining four are all "stuffed and mounted" on isolated track. Two in FL, and two in CA.

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