IMHO there is quite a difference between the kind of coal for a huge electric power plant and what is needed for a steam locomotive. The kind of coal needed for a steam locomotive is getting harder to source because there is so little demand for it.

Enough of a difference that there is motivation to develop usable bio-coal.

See:

https://csrail.org/everett

Brian

.

The classic tactic of several charter operations has been to "mar" the appearance of the "photo subject" in some irredeemable fashion while running through the "public access" areas. Tactics have included dangling hi-visibility vests from the cab or placing them over the numberplate and headlight, putting traffic cones or yellow safety/police line "tape" on the pilot or atop the cab, etc. I'm just waiting for someone to borrow the "Thomas" face.......

As one operator told me ages ago, "There's nothing I can do to keep the public or a free-loader from seeing the train in a public area. But I can make darn sure he can't get a saleable photo or video for a calendar, stock agency, or magazine, or a slide contest winner!"

They have announced that it will indeed be running out of Chama.

I have also heard that straight from a very reliable source. My understanding is that OY will be making the trip back to Chama in the near future.

/Kevin Madore

As someone who participates in at least 6-8 steam charters per year, I'm not terribly concerned with what the freeloaders get for photos. All I really care about is that they stay clear of the locations where the charter is taking photos. That means when the train stops, and people start getting off, they should keep themselves, their vehicles and their drones well clear. That's just common courtesy.....which perhaps is not as common as it used to be. Hopefully, these folks have at least some grasp of the concept that without people like me, paying the railroad to run one of these shows, they would have nothing to chase.

/Kevin Madore

I have also heard that straight from a very reliable source. My understanding is that OY will be making the trip back to Chama in the near future.

/Kevin Madore[/quote]

John Bush posted this on the Narrow Gauge Discussion Forum. 463 will bring it to Chama.

Mike Stillwell
Buena Vista, VA.

The challenge with this particular trip is that, given the weather conditions (preferably deep snow), there is nowhere to park the busses to unload people without closing the road since the shoulders won't get plowed....and if you allow people to chase (and presuming you can find a place to park hundreds of cars on a road with no shoulder), there is nowhere you could put the paying people that is isolated without hiking them through hundreds of feet of deep snow at very high elevations, and that's not even factoring in Rancho del Oso Pardo. You can't sell this charter at these prices if people can get the exact same photos without paying for it. It will be interesting to see how it all plays out, but I suspect anyone who doesn't pay is going to be in for a rude awakening when they find out that are not allowed to motorcade the rotary up the hill in their own cars.

Many years ago some train operators sold drive along passes. Someone realized that this would be a liability nightmare if a pass holder caused or was in a wreck. That was the end of that bright idea. Here is some info on the plows.

LESLIE ROTARY SNOWPLOW LESLIE BROTHERS MFG. CO. PATTERSON, NJ
24 Cooke 01-1889 Denver & Rio Grande RR #2>OM (3’ gauge)
Denver & Rio Grande Western RR #OM
Cumbres & Toltec Scenic RR #OM 1970
http://drgw.free.fr/DRGW/MOW/Snow/Rotar ... 387_en.htm

65053 Cooke 11-1923 Denver & Rio Grande Western RR #OY
Cumbres & Toltec Scenic RR #OY 1970
https://davesriogrande.net/Rosters/DRGW/workcars/oy.htm

All

Consider this. I two pages the discussion is on free loaders. None of this is on the benefit vs inconvenience for the owners of the railroad. The C&TS is not a private property. The railroad has a long list of financial support from both states. During this time of the year weather can close any route. Given the right conditions this could be a PR nightmare for a few 50 people with cameras and an unwillingness to spend much more money on anything else than model trains. The railroad has every reason to celebrate this anniversary. But does inconveniencing the citizens who could care less about a rotary run to need to get somewhere else without a 4 hour detour worth it. Ask any construction worker about delaying someone 30 minutes and the comments people make. Is this "railfan frustration" solution for a few quest really worth pissing off the railroad owners who have to travel several hours out of their way?

Robby Peartree

Folks,

As noted previously, there is no plan to completely close the road or send anyone on hundred mile detours. The state would simply treat the event site like a construction zone and escort non-participants past it in a safe and controlled fashion.

I think that the reason for the protracted discussion is that some are still having a difficult time grasping the concept that the railroad is not funding this event, and therefore it is not a public event. Unlike the UP Big Boy tours, the C&TS does not have the PR budget to run this type of operation purely for public good will. If it did, the event would be wide-open to anyone who wanted to travel to Chama and there would be nothing to discuss. But given that the operation needs to be funded privately, the railroad must cater to the concerns of the potential patronage and keep it as controlled as possible, or the folks who are inclined to pay to see it will decide that it is not worth what is likely to be a fairly steep price......and then there is no event.

Lastly, if anyone has ever been on Highway 17 during a steam charter that has been publicly advertised, they would begin to understand exactly what the concerns are. Without some degree of control, the risk of an accident is significant. And if there is some kind of serious accident, there are precious few emergency resources in the area to deal with it.

/Kevin Madore

And if there is an accident in the pilot line then who is going to pay for the litigation cost? The RR, the event promoter? How is it going to sound in court that we closed the road so people taking pictures of a train who did not want to deal with free loaders at this event. In a pilot line you can not stop someone from turning off the road or even "breaking down". When this run was originally proposed they were going to run out of Antonito to create the event leaving Alamosa where the rotary trips typically started. Now they want to close a road because the access is easy but they do not want to deal with the negatives.

Congrats, C&TS it is definitely being ran by railfans who are not looking at the big picture. A former commissioner has argued that the 1472 day inspection were a capital cost and therefore a responsibility of the owner. Since the states have funded such inspections and the event uses service days then the citizens of the states are funding this event and should they not get a benefit from it. The railfan answer is no because the daily cost are covered by another party.

Robby Peartree

Posted by the railroad on the C&TS Special Projects Facebook Page:

"Almost ready to return to Chama in readiness for the 2020 charter! Some have wondered why the ticket price is high and that traffic control will be in effect. First of all, for the safety of the event, a free for all would be inadvisable. The multiple accidents surrounding the big boy actually caused a representative from DOT to suggest the above approach. This will prevent the possibility of injury. As for price, between the Friends of Cumbres and Toltec, special projects, and the narrow gauge preservation foundation, rehabilitating and returning this rotary to service has cost almost $55,000. Operating costs for the event will top $90,000 potentially. Sound business sense and the ongoing survival of the railroad necessitate that these events do not run at a loss. We thank you for your ongoing support of the Cumbres and Toltec Scenic Railroad!"

The railroad has begun contacting people on the wait-list. The ticket price is apparently $1,200 per person.

/Kevin Madore

One other thing to consider as well is that this highway over Cumbres is often closed to vehicular traffic this time of year, making the possibility that the C&TS has made arraignments for the road to be cleared enough for there busses to get thru, but still could be legally closed by one or both states. when I did a rotary event back in 1997 it was in early May I believe, and the roads and shoulders were well cleared by then.

AL P.

In the 20 years I lived in Chama, Highway 17 over Cumbres was closed probably a total of 15 days. CDOT has a highway camp on the east side of La Manga Pass that houses the snowplow crews.

The only times 17 would be closed was for a few days after a major storm. When this happened, US 160 over Wolf Creek Pass was the main artery and had to be opened first. CDOT would borrow the La Manga crews and their plows and send them up to Wolf Creek for a few days until they had 160 cleared, then would come home to open up La Manga/Cumbres.