New isn't always good though, - as this little saga on the Isle of Man proves.....

https://railequipmentsolutions.com/proj ... oject-550/

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe ... n-25911722

http://www.iomtoday.co.im/article.cfm?i ... hyear=2019

"One mum told her children: ’It’s not a nice steam train, it’s a horrible dirty diesel.’"

I don't know how to politely say this, but that new loco for the wp&y looks rather, um, UGLY. She has a face "only a Mother could love." At least IMHO. A large headlight in the center of that flat front would HELP some.

WP&Y is much like GCRR - with that scenery out the window passengers don't care what is pulling the train.

For a start... if that were true neither would operate steam ever. They have both found that enough people do care that it is worth it to have steam run on a regular basis.

And have you ridden them both? Grand Canyon is an interesting line, but White Pass & Yukon and Durango have them beat with "breathtaking" scenery.

I don’t think that’s the intention Dave was going for. He was just stating because the WP&Y and the Grand Canyon RR have scenery as being the lure for most people, they can get away with using diesel locomotives because those operations are more for getting tourists to enjoy the scenery rather than the technology used or operations. They operate the steam locomotives because people enjoy them, but they don’t have to because the people will come regardless of what pulls their train, as long as they get to view the scenery.

With the EBT that wouldn’t work however, because while the scenery of the Pennsylvania countryside and mountains is very nice, that’s not the main reason people visit the EBT. They visit because of steam locomotives and early 20th century architecture and technology. If a modern diesel such as the one the WP&Y recently bought was to be used for regular operations on the EBT, the immersion effect would be lost.

People are for the most part not railfans. Stop thinking like us.

WP&Y is provided an audience by the cruise line that docks in Skagway. The railroad trip is sort of a side land cruise to that experience. Steam is an auxiliary special event for them. believe me if you have done the cruise and railroad, you are so happy to be off that damn boat and on land doing something interesting and having the ability to get some good food and smoked Porter in Skagway that motive power isn't a consideration.

I do see the point about the scenery on GCRR being a bit like CATS and somewhat monotone - until of course you get to the end. But again steam isn't the selling point other than for special events - and if you do the same event every day it ceases to be special.

D&SNGRR has chosen to be more about a time machine than only exploiting scenery - the commitment to that and willingness to take on the added expense and trouble of steam operation even with that scenery front and center is what I most respect about Mr Harper's gang - apart from their marketing prowess. It would be nice to have more of those....and EBT might be another time machine without the distraction of superlative scenery to exploit - steam and its context are the most important things going for it. Train rides must be combined with other programming to truly make best use of that time machine, without losing the historic context through intrusion of the modern world as much as possible. The question is, to what extent are people interested in going back in time in an other than digital format?

I see what you mean, and I agree. The major point is, East Broad Top IS the history. Otherwise there isn't a draw. I certainly agree with that 100%.

There are certainly people who either don't care what is pulling the train, or would rather ride behind a diesel for various reasons. (Historic, personal interest, family connection, etc.). But White Pass & Yukon wouldn't be running steam 4 times a week if people didn't care. They'd just run it a few times a year for a little show.

Obviously if you count the scenery that the Grand Canyon goes to... now that is certainly breathtakingly scenic so I may have mis-spoken there. I just get a little defensive when people say nobody cares about steam... cause that's just not true. (Trust me... I worked in a ticket office for 10+ years and when steam went down for an unexpected reason I learned real fast that quite a few people care!).

We must have been typing at the same time! :)

"WP&Y is provided an audience by the cruise line that docks in Skagway. The railroad trip is sort of a side land cruise to that experience. Steam is an auxiliary special event for them."

3 - 4 times a week is a special event? I'm familiar with the WP&Y.. they are owned by Carnival now so yes it's all about the cruise line.

Grand Canyon built themselves on the same time machine formula.. the new owners took steam away entirely.. and have now brought it back monthly. Once a month is on the edge of special event status and I still think they are trying to find the right balance of old steam train vs. classy vintage train. That's a different deal though as nobody is expecting a classy streamlined train at East Broad Top that's for sure!


"People are for the most part not railfans. Stop thinking like us."

To which I say - Not just railfans care about steam. Stop Thinking like that.

I worked in a ticket office and as a Conductor at a tourist line for 10+ years. You'd be surprised how many people care about steam. Of course some people don't.

Great lines!!

However, I have to ask how long ago the 10 years of service was. This isn't to say you're wrong, far from it, but there's a chance if it was any length of time ago, things may have changed.

I was hired in 2003. I’m still an employee seasonally but I was there all the time from 03 - 15. (I was listed part time but I worked 6 days a week :-p ). Last time I sold tickets was less than a year ago though.

I actually saw interest in steam grow. When I started, people only knew what the brochure in their hand told them. Now people show up asking about specific locomotives. And by people I mean people, not just railfans. They usually don’t ask, they want to tell me about them!

Happy days, happy days, we don't have to worry too much about people not caring about the power (at least in some cases)!

I see a big divide in opinion regarding EBT and how to market and gear toward it. Most railroad museums from the C&T, D&S, even the famous Strasburg are not REAL 1920s railroading. Modern practice and technology (I better state what I mean. From diesel power to roller bearings, to electricity and AC) in more ways then 1 has tainted the experience they are trying to emulate. They strive to offer a authentic experience. The EBT don't have to try, it IS that experience the others strive to reach. That is why the EBT must be careful about bringing modern and foreign material and equipment in willy nilly just for the sake of the operation as it spoils the entire allure of the EBT for most people. There are many vintage railroad facilities/museums around the US, but the EBT is the 1920s unchanged. THAT is the allure. Allow me to explain exactly what I am talking about. The Strasburg, C&T, and D&S are like your classic car museum. You go there and see perfect cars from the carriage era to the muscle era with perfect paint, perfect chrome, perfect panel gaps, etc. That however is how those cars SHOULD have been built, but they weren't. Paint wasn't perfect, panel gaps were sloppy, and chrome had inperfections. That is how they were built in mass and what people bought. The EBT is like that dilapidated museum (such as Pioneer Village in Minden, Nebraska) where vintage cars were bought with current tags on them being driven as daily transportation and put as is in the museum. You see exactly what people bought and how they were used and how they wore. You see reality not a fantasy or illusion of what could have been. You see exactly how it was. Another example is Stuhr Museum in Grand Island, Neb. Real unbastardized old west buildings brought to 1 place and laid out in a 'old west' pattern town. You walk on dirt roads or wood 'sidewalks' into the general store and buy handmade candy immigrants would of eaten in Wyoming in 1870, or head to the sod house that was built to exacting standards what was on the plains in the early years.

My point is that the EBT is 100% unchanged, uninterpreted (REAL) railroading from 1920. THAT is what makes world class different from good or nice historic locations. Introducing modern equipment, and things of that sort (like modern diesels and generic WP&Y passenger cars) destroy that marketability for the sake of modern convenience. That is why imho it is so vital and critical to be careful how the lack of passenger equipment is addressed. The best way for them to avoid damaging the experience is duplicating EBT cars imo. There are many nice steam powered tourist railroads, but the EBT is a entire steam era railroad. There is almost no competition on the market for that, but there is for 'just another tourist railroad' that sacrifices historic fabric for the sake of modern expectations. I rest my discussion on this topic and am fairly certain the head of the EBT is aware of this issue. In the end I am just very grateful for them saving this irreplaceable national treasure.

Hello,

To underscore the last post from JayZee, there is something to be said for old school. In today's world of hyper stimulation of virtual gaming and unending movies trying to outdo each other with CGI or any other possible special effect to the point of severe over saturation, the EBT has a very unique opportunity.

They have a 100% authentic setting which any other industrial heritage museum would envy, on the level of Greenfield Village.......they have an original line shaft machine shop which can be driven by its original steam engine.....a venue the machine shop group at Tuckahoe would wish for and not need to be replicated.....an original roundhouse which, when you would walk in the door and breath in the smell of aged steam locomotives, it cannot be beat (you who have a passion for old machinery know that smell!)

The fire protection system is a sound investment......they don't need an extended route to top the experience......facility tours with the full exposure to the shops is worth the trip alone. Restoring the line to Colgate Grove would make an adequate trip, however shoring up and preserving Orbisonia facility is priceless.

Joe Walsh said it well in a really good song he recently wrote......."he is analog man in a digital world."

Folks may be ready for an experience like this.....it's fundamental, in its original setting......real not virtual......

Prior to this, I thought its remoteness was a detriment to visitors.....really? What folks drop down and do these days for a recreation is substantial. Sure, it takes some effort to get there but it's worth it.

Sincerely,

Randy

I think one of the closest potential US operations is Railtown in California - the original home base for the Sierra Railway with a lot of its original equipment and structures. Ownership is different in being public sector, but not near any major urban area and historically still reasonably "pure." Are there any lessons or ideas we can adapt from it to the potential at EBT?

CZ - we are not in opposition. I belong to an organization that had steam operation as the ONLY selling point, and which has been scrambling to make good with diesel trains while steam is down for an interminable time since despite being in the wealthiest MSA in the state there's no source of income apart from ticket sales and the idea of adherence to a mission that's definable and reasonable in scope is a fantasy unimportant to most of the members or management. Their solution was the proliferation of special events which has worked out pretty well and a lot of good work is being done as a result, so i send in my donation every year........ but I do wish they would better define their focus and narrow their scope and learn to exploit the pile of money sitting around them to do less things but each of them better. So, not a potential time machine and not a contextual comparable but does underscore the draw of steam - but would that work if there were out in nowhere?