Ross is right: you still have to want to go there.

Orbisonia may be 21 minutes from the Turnpike (I-76) but Fort Littleton and Willow Hill are probably the least used exits. US 22 isn't that far either in Mount Union, 18 minutes, but you have to know you want to turn onto US 522 to go there from either of them.

It's not that far from the NEC - 3 hours from Phila - but you have to want to go there.

Phil Mulligan

That's true for most railroads. You would never happen to pass by Tennessee Valley Railroad or Illinois Railway Museum for example.

Yeah Ross.. the great New Hope is an example of a railroad that is right in the middle of town. Black Hills Central has a prime location too as does Durango, Sacramento, and a few others.

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter. People go to Cass, Durbin, Cumbres & Toltec, Nevada Northern etc. These are literally some of the most successful railroaders in our generation, they know what they are doing.

It ain't too complicated. If you rank the tourist railroads by annual gross revenues ( at the end of the day what counts is how much cash revenue was generated not how many bodies were carried) you'll find that every one of them in the top 25 are to a greater or lesser ( mostly greater) degree parasites benefiting from being in or very close to a major tourism attraction(s).

EBT will never be in that fortunate position and therefore will never be able to be self supporting using ticket/souvenir revenues and will be dependent upon endowment and other fund raising activities.

Again, I'm totally confident that the 3 founders have this covered.

Ross Rowland

The Cass Scenic Railroad was both run as a state park and subsidized by the State of West Virginia until the end of 2014. At that time, operations and maintenance were turned over to the for-profit Durbin & Greenbrier Valley Railroad. The state still owns the tracks and equipment, but leave it to the operator to turn a profit. The new operator has kept the old equipment going and has expanded the operating season. Of course, fares doubled because the state had kept them artificially low to attract visitors which rankled many long-time riders. The D&GVRR is also almost finished rebuilding the 14 mile line from Cass to Durbin that was washed out in a 500-year flood back in 1985. The state is providing materials (ties, ballast) but the D&GVRR is supplying the labor.

https://www.wvgazettemail.com/news/durb ... 85175.html

Thanks Roger - I was unaware they had gone to the Georgetown Loop model. I hope it all works out for them and they don't lose too many passengers. Butts in seats does matter when the goal is economic development since visitors to the primary attraction also spend it nearby assuming there's anyplace nearby to spend it in.......

I don't know about Tennessee Valley, but IRM is only seven to ten minutes from Interstate 90, which is one of the major cross country routes. It's also between I-39 and I-355/290, making it relatively easy for cross country travelers on I-80 to loop up there and back down without having to get off the Interstate system. It's also within an hour drive from the north side of Chicago and all the northwest and western suburbs, and within two hours from anywhere in the Chicago metro area, making it a perfect day trip. If you haven't stumbled upon it, it's because you weren't trying.

Huh? I think we might be on 2 ends of the same wye! Lol.

IRM and TVRM are easy to get to if you know they exist and are wanting to go there. But neither of them are in a tourist area where people happen to see them and say let’s go for a train ride.

TVRM is a worse example though because there location is better than IRM and lots of tourists visiting Chattanooga do ride the train there. I doubt many tourists to Chicago even know IRM exists.

I REALLY BELIEVE THAT EBT WILL BE JUST FINE. WE WILL PLAN A VACATION THERE NEXT YEAR.

I think a couple of factors are being overlooked.

1) "In the middle of nowhere" in Pennsylvania still has a lot of people within reasonable driving distance. The state is well populated, even in rural areas. It's not like the west with vast empty spaces. There's lots of house in "them thar hills"

2) "You have to want to go there". Yes, and people do. When the Mt Rainier Scenic Railroad first started, the vast majority of our patrons were people who saw the train driving by on the way to Mt Rainier National Park and said "Hey, let's go for a train ride, kids".

Eventually, I built them a website (way back the last century, we were ahead of the curve) and they started selling tickets online. It ended up that almost all of the tickets were advance sales. I'm not privy to ticket info on the new operation, but special events like the Polar Express routinely sell out far in advance. That can only mean one thing, all tickets were advance sales.

People who buy tickets in advance will travel to your location, even if it's an hour off the freeway. You don't have to depend on them just passing by. They come there specifically to ride the train.

Then again, over 50 year ago when I first visited, we went there just to ride the train. It was an overnight trip, since it was a long drive on windy roads from Pittsburgh, but my family did it so I could ride a real steam train. I think we also visited Strasburg on that trip as well. So even in those days, people sought them out. The locals will often ride once or twice and that's it.

I think they can do just fine. If you have any doubt, pull up a map. Look at the location of the Nevada Northern and see how many people live nearby. Then compare that to how many are in day trip distance to EBT. Pretty sure EBT wins, even if you count jackrabbits for the NN.

In Shirleysburg, right across the Aughwick Creek from the EBT, is a 280-acre festival ground. That facility can accommodate up to 40,000 attendees. Their website says they host many events each year, including a very large religious concert festival that thousands of people attend.

The location might not be ideal for catching customers on impulse as they happen to be driving by, but with the right marketing, I think they could make people want to go there in sufficient numbers. I don't think it is a forgone conclusion that the EBT cannot be self-supporting. The remoteness might be part of the appeal for people wanting to go there. It was for me. I don't know what the area is like today, but in the 1970s, the general area seemed to be a nice, natural setting for the historic railroad.

If the operation of the railroad covers it's "above the rail" costs - labor, fuel, utilities, etc. - then any endowment can be used for physical maintenance and capital improvements. That's been the yardstick for keeping track of transit costs. As operations like Strasburg (and any large leisure destination, like an amusement park) know, the key to ridership is steady and predictable group tour patronage. Along with a smart souvenir operation, it's the revenue base that keeps the lights on day to day ("Exit through out gift shop, please"). Having that kind of a ridership base also makes marketing a little simpler and more focused. If the EBT can average three or four bus loads/day through the railroad during the average tourist season, peaking in October, then they should be able to make it.

One thing that is desperately needed in the area is a mid-level motel/hotel, probably in Mt. Union. Something along the lines of a Super 8, next to a mid-level family restaurant that can accommodate bus load patronage on a regular basis, like a Bob Evans, or for those in the plains, a Village Inn (I think that's the name of the chain). Eat 'n Park is a Pennsylvania-based chain that might be interested in opening a location there, with an operating philosophy along the lines I'm suggesting. You don't need chefs, you need good line cooks (maybe someone who cut their teeth cooking on an aircraft carrier or cruise ship). I would hope that the team at the foundation is taking a comprehensive approach to the entire community ecosystem needed to make the operation successful. Knowing the quality of the founders of it, I think they are.

Eat'n Park would be a good choice!! I like the food there, and the current restaurant designs have a nice, retro-late 50s style, inside and out.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eat%27n_P ... Rd_jeh.jpg

The state and counties should pitch in for this effort. The EBT has the potential to completely change the state of the economy for the area and that means its in the states interests to help.

I don't know why all these postings on speculations as to what will make the EBT successful. The people behind the EBT group are all well-known folks with decades of experience in both railway preservation, steam operations, and tourist railway management. Let them "do their thing" and meantime, let us support them in, whatever manner we can, their endeavors to rebuilt the EBT into the gem it once was, and in many ways, still is.