Ever wonder why officials of non-profit rail museums publicly announce that steam locomotives requiring extensive work will be finished with no problems way ahead of schedule, when in reality they are years behind schedule, are expensive propositions and will be finished in 3-5 years (or more)? Why the lies? It seems like smoke and mirrors deception to the donors who have been promised something that cannot be delivered truthfully! Donors have the right to be informed with the facts and not deceived with shades of gray. It should be a rule that telling the truth is required when issuing a press release. Question the board and the officials of the group--take an active role and ask them where your dollars are going and what the status of the project is. Anything less is cause for alarm.

Another topic which I never see addressed on this board (and is SO pervasive in the railway museum field)is the "boilers & attitudes" issue. Why is it that an unusually high number of inflated egos are present whenever a steam locomotive is under restoration or is fired up? Why does this field tend to attract very abrasive, know-it-all, cocky operating-types who resist professionalism? I never see this trend at marittime museums where restorationists seems to be equals and teamwork is always at the forefront. It seems this type of attitude led to the Gettysburg RR accident--and scores of other "incidents" that were close to Gettysburg but have never been talked about.

It is an issue that is seldom addressed in this forum and never seems to get any attention. Does anyone feel the same way as I?? Please speak up!

As one of those officials, I can assure you anyone who is PURPOSELY falsifying the length of time or the cost to restore a steam locomotive will not be an "official" very long. Why would anyone do that on purpose? Why would somone want to UNDERESTIMATE the amount of money needed to properly perform a restoration? Why would you voluntarily put yourself in a position to have to admit failure and turn around and ask for more money? I think your conclusions about this subject are WAY off base. There are many reasons an extensive restoration project might come in over budget and take more time than anticipated but I don't think you can blame it on anyone's desire to keep the truth from those who provided the funding.

As far as the ego in the railfan community, the reason I "put up with it" is, for the most part, it comes to the surface as a result of PASSION for the subject. This shouldn't be a license to be ignorant to people who do not share your opinion, but without the passion in this or any other community the fire eventually goes out.

Scott Cessna
Director
Railroaders Memorial Museum

> Ever wonder why officials of non-profit rail
> museums publicly announce that steam
> locomotives requiring extensive work will be
> finished with no problems way ahead of
> schedule, when in reality they are years
> behind schedule, are expensive propositions
> and will be finished in 3-5 years (or more)?
> Why the lies? It seems like smoke and
> mirrors deception to the donors who have
> been promised something that cannot be
> delivered truthfully! Donors have the right
> to be informed with the facts and not
> deceived with shades of gray. It should be a
> rule that telling the truth is required when
> issuing a press release. Question the board
> and the officials of the group--take an
> active role and ask them where your dollars
> are going and what the status of the project
> is. Anything less is cause for alarm.

> Another topic which I never see addressed on
> this board (and is SO pervasive in the
> railway museum field)is the "boilers
> & attitudes" issue. Why is it that
> an unusually high number of inflated egos
> are present whenever a steam locomotive is
> under restoration or is fired up? Why does
> this field tend to attract very abrasive,
> know-it-all, cocky operating-types who
> resist professionalism? I never see this
> trend at marittime museums where
> restorationists seems to be equals and
> teamwork is always at the forefront. It
> seems this type of attitude led to the
> Gettysburg RR accident--and scores of other
> "incidents" that were close to
> Gettysburg but have never been talked about.

> It is an issue that is seldom addressed in
> this forum and never seems to get any
> attention. Does anyone feel the same way as
> I?? Please speak up!


Railroaders Memorial Museum
director@railroadcity.com

This looks like dangerous territory, but I'll take the plunge as I would prefer a more positive approach to the discussion. At NJMT the restoration of Porter #46 is taking much longer than expected. Why? It was much worse than we expected.

We were heart broken when we removed the drivers from the frame and found the axle journals scored terribly. It took weeks and months to get that repaired and lots of money. The front flue sheet was found to be beyond repair and had to be removed. Its size and specifications made it difficult to find a code shop to make what we needed. But with time, we found a supplier and the sheet is ready for installation.

None of the delays or false hopes are intentional or planned. You just never know what you will really uncover from a locomotive that is approaching 90 years old.

What might be useful on this forum is a check list of what to look for when investigating the restoration of a steam locomotive, large or small. Full mapping of the boiler, VERY close inspection of axle condition, cylinder inspection are just a few items to look at closely.

I suspect our Q&TL #6 will be a wee bit easier compared to the #46. I pray that it got better care up in Michigan than the Porter did in the jungle. Plus we have a full set of drawings for it and we will be prepared to do extensive boiler repairs as well. Our Shay, which ran for most of the past 75 years should be our biggest challenge.

Hope this helps.
J.R.

> Ever wonder why officials of non-profit rail
> museums publicly announce that steam
> locomotives requiring extensive work will be
> finished with no problems way ahead of
> schedule, when in reality they are years
> behind schedule, are expensive propositions
> and will be finished in 3-5 years (or more)?
> Why the lies? It seems like smoke and
> mirrors deception to the donors who have
> been promised something that cannot be
> delivered truthfully! Donors have the right
> to be informed with the facts and not
> deceived with shades of gray. It should be a
> rule that telling the truth is required when
> issuing a press release. Question the board
> and the officials of the group--take an
> active role and ask them where your dollars
> are going and what the status of the project
> is. Anything less is cause for alarm.

> Another topic which I never see addressed on
> this board (and is SO pervasive in the
> railway museum field)is the "boilers
> & attitudes" issue. Why is it that
> an unusually high number of inflated egos
> are present whenever a steam locomotive is
> under restoration or is fired up? Why does
> this field tend to attract very abrasive,
> know-it-all, cocky operating-types who
> resist professionalism? I never see this
> trend at marittime museums where
> restorationists seems to be equals and
> teamwork is always at the forefront. It
> seems this type of attitude led to the
> Gettysburg RR accident--and scores of other
> "incidents" that were close to
> Gettysburg but have never been talked about.

> It is an issue that is seldom addressed in
> this forum and never seems to get any
> attention. Does anyone feel the same way as
> I?? Please speak up!


http://www.njmt.org
jrmay@njmt.org

> Ever wonder why officials of non-profit rail
> museums publicly announce that steam
> locomotives requiring extensive work will be
> finished with no problems way ahead of
> schedule,

Well, steam locomotives are a lot like Pandora's Box - you never know what evils you will find until you open them up!

As for egos, I always try to remember something my father said - "Those people who THINK they know everything are quite annnoying to we who do!"

And another quote I love, attributed to Henry Ford - "Reputations aren't built on what you are going to do!"

Martyhuck@aol.com

As one who has worked in Maritime Preservation since I was a teen ager we do indeed have opinions, egos (big ones) and passions. Yes, most of us really do care what happens to that deck,engine, mast, sail or whatever.

In the maritime world there are seldom second chances; it is not like a 44 ton switcher where there were hundreds built over a long period. Fro example there were about 2500 Liberty Ships and today there are 2 of them! And of course the artifact can sink! You don't want to know what it does to an organizations moral when you come to work on a Sunday morning and see only the top of the smoke stack!

In my experience at a railroad museumm people want to do it right and they want to show their pride and joy to the public. Those are good things as far as I can see!

Ted Miles


ted_miles@nps.gov

> Well, steam locomotives are a lot like
> Pandora's Box - you never know what evils
> you will find until you open them up!

> As for egos, I always try to remember
> something my father said - "Those
> people who THINK they know everything are
> quite annnoying to we who do!"

> And another quote I love, attributed to
> Henry Ford - "Reputations aren't built
> on what you are going to do!"

Ain't it the truth!

But seriously, folks...Marty and the others are correct; it's very seldom a case of lies. Most often, it's a little too much optimism and hope mixed with too little experience/reality. I know of several locomotives sitting in pieces right now because the people who made the promises didn't know what they were talking about and/or wouldn't listen to reason. Not to mention those who take on a known lost cause basket case, and learn the hard way why it is a lost cause. There are always a few well-meaning but naive souls who fall for the old "it was just overhauled before they put it on display and should be ready to run with nothing more than a paint job" line.

There ARE a few contractors out there known to deliberately low-ball a price and completion time, get the machine all apart, then "find other things wrong with it" and need more money and time to finish. Fund raising starts, and the engine fixer always needs just a little more money than they raise; if they raise $100K, he will need $125k. If they raise a million, he'll need $1.2 million, and the game goes on until they wake up and fire the guy, or they go bust. In a worst case, the crooked mechanic ends up with a lot of their parts and tools, and maybe even their locootive, which will suddenly and miraculously run the next weekend after the lein is enforced.

Those who fail to simply check references, whether they be prospective donors or engine owners looking for contractors, deserve what they get (or don't get), IMO.

It's sometimes a cruel world out there.

It is a fine line, Earl, to not appear weaselly while honestly preparing clients for potential expensive problems which do not make themselves visible until the job is half done. I agree with your comments about some notorious contractors, but be advised that some customers are reluctant to understand that all questions can't be answered before the project starts.

I am now in the middle of a job which was started by another contractor who left it unfinished and with repairs he charged for which are not in compliance with FRA regulations. My client believes he has been burned already, and wants assurances I can't honestly provide. How do I know that a wheel center won't shatter when we press the new axle out? I am working on getting estimates for boiler work which will hopefully allow him to understand what his restoration will cost, but he doesn't want to invest in metallurgical testing to assure the metal can be welded until we have those costs.

There are good people in this business who try their hardest to honestly present a ralistic picture, there are those who mistakenly believe what they want to believe, and there are those who just want to promote a job. The world isn't what it was in the 1960's, many fewer people have the experience and knowledge now that was common then, and we are under a much more intensive public scrutiny and held to greater accountibility.

I see a lot of good intentions turning to pavement in several projects either working, stalled, or proposed without a realistic basis. We need to be careful about the perceptions we promote and police ourselves.

Dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

> Why the lies? It seems like smoke and
> mirrors deception to the donors who have
> been promised something that cannot be
> delivered truthfully! Donors have the right
> to be informed with the facts and not
> deceived with shades of gray.

I agree with the other posters that this is too harsh a formulation of the problem. These are probably cases more of willful self-deception than malicious lies.

However, these kinds of incidents when they do occur reflect all too clearly the basic "boys club" attitude that still marks too many of our organizations. The group is organized essentially as a social forum and a means of ego gratification for a core group of memebers. It has not realistic site plan, interpretive plan, business plan, or fundraising plan.

Why does
> this field tend to attract very abrasive,
> know-it-all, cocky operating-types who
> resist professionalism? I never see this
> trend at marittime museums where
> restorationists seems to be equals and
> teamwork is always at the forefront.

See club atmosphere above. For a counter-example, have a look at the profile of the MILW 261 group in the current Railfan & Railroad.

It
> seems this type of attitude led to the
> Gettysburg RR accident--and scores of other
> "incidents" that were close to
> Gettysburg but have never been talked about.

Have there really been "scores" of incidents close to Gettysburg--as in multiples of 20? That seems like hyperbole to me.

> It is an issue that is seldom addressed in
> this forum and never seems to get any
> attention. Does anyone feel the same way as
> I?? Please speak up!

Well, I think you're on to two major problems in our field: amateurism and "clubbishness" of too many of our organizations, and the "old boy" attitude that drives away instead of attracting new volunteers. I think we have actually chewed over both problems in this forum in the last couple years, though the older discussion woun't be avialable in the online archive currently.

eledbetter@rypn.org

I think part of the overly optimistic assessments is that "we" would like for the engines to be out and about sooner than later. I know that in tearing down and mapping the boiler on BC&G 4 last year, a pretty good-sized 2-8-0, the initial numbers looked bad and the final numbers, prepared through an independent assessment, came out much worse than any of us would have thought considering we put in quite a bit of a firebox in 1992. A project initially estimated at $50,000 quickly rose into the low six figures.

As for egos, I recall something that Walter Gray, former head of California State RR Museum, once told me: Ego is directly proportional to the deck height above the rails. The bigger the engine, the bigger the egos!

Nine days until vacation! Jim

http://nctrans.org
Wrinnbo@aol.com

> Ever wonder why officials of non-profit rail
> museums publicly announce that steam
> locomotives requiring extensive work will be
> finished with no problems way ahead of
> schedule, when in reality they are years
> behind schedule, are expensive propositions
> and will be finished in 3-5 years (or more)?
> Why the lies?

The golden rule in planning ANY complex project is this:

The first 90% of the project takes 90% of the resources.

The other 10% of the projects takes the OTHER 90% of the resources.

I'm not being flippant. Planning a project to go perfectly, then doubling everything, usually puts you in the ballpark. Home restoration, weddings, steam locomotive overhaul - they all follow the rule.

Now most steam restoration folks aren't project planners by trade - and like Earl says, they're optimistic.

They're not usually liars - just naive.

JAC

If you find yourself in the position of making an estimate you need to plan for everything. Make a spreadsheet and list every last item. Next make two columns of numbers, first the low number and then the high number. The key here is don't miss anything, itimize every single part of the locomotive/railcar/tolley.

Once you do this you will have a range to work within. Each job you complete with voulenteers and donated material you will be ahead. If you have to buy all material and pay for labor on each job you should still be within the range.

Tom Gears

Tom, you can't estimate high and low numbers on conditions which are not visible. The cost of completely disassembling and inspecting all parts can provide a basis for estimating further costs in a spreadsheet but still won't allow for that part that breaks while the planned work is done on it or the condition that only makes itself known during the course of the job. Then what do you do with the kit you have created at no small expense?

The time required to do a job of the magnitude of a complete restoration even with paid staff working on it exceeds the time that materials costs and other beyond control supply, administrative, regulatory, etc. costs can be relied upon to remain stable, so your costs used to create the estimates in the spreadsheet can't be relied on for the duration of the project either. Ask anybody who based a bid on what his insurance cost him 3 years ago.

It isn't hitting a moving target - it is hitting a few hundred moving targets with one muzzle loader.
The wonder is we can actually get any of them done in a reasonable and cost effective manner.

Murphy was an optimist, and the universe can always come up with one additional unforseen perversity to contribute.

Dave



irondave@bellsouth.net

> Another topic which I never see addressed on
> this board (and is SO pervasive in the
> railway museum field)is the "boilers
> & attitudes" issue. Why is it that
> an unusually high number of inflated egos
> are present whenever a steam locomotive is
> under restoration or is fired up? Why does
> this field tend to attract very abrasive,
> know-it-all, cocky operating-types who
> resist professionalism?

I don't think these personality defects are limited to steam locomotive restoration groups. I've seen them in several other non-railroad NPO (non-profit organizations) I've belonged too.

What always scares me, and I think these are the one's you are really referring to, are the people who show up because they're looking for a life. It doesn't take long to realize that this person is a "nobody" where they're employed and a "nothing" everywhere else. They apparently hope to somehow become important in your group and thus validate themselves.

Sometimes they mellow out and become worthwhile contributors, even friends. Too often, they become so involved with organization politics, personal agendas, and personality conflicts, that they become a drain on the organization or project. Sometimes they realize they're no longer welcome and leave of their own accord, sometimes they are asked to leave.

It is just part of life with volunteer organizations.


nolonger@thisaddress.com

> It is a fine line, Earl, to not appear
> weaselly while honestly preparing clients
> for potential expensive problems which do
> not make themselves visible until the job is
> half done. I agree with your comments about
> some notorious contractors, but be advised
> that some customers are reluctant to
> understand that all questions can't be
> answered before the project starts.

> There are good people in this business who
> try their hardest to honestly present a
> ralistic picture, there are those who
> mistakenly believe what they want to
> believe, and there are those who just want
> to promote a job. The world isn't what it
> was in the 1960's, many fewer people have
> the experience and knowledge now that was
> common then, and we are under a much more
> intensive public scrutiny and held to
> greater accountibility.

> I see a lot of good intentions turning to
> pavement in several projects either working,
> stalled, or proposed without a realistic
> basis. We need to be careful about the
> perceptions we promote and police ourselves.

> Dave

I agree. My point is that probably not one of us has ever begun, for example, a home repair/remodeling project that didn't turn out to take longer and cost more than we initially thought it would. Locomotives and cars are pretty much the same way.

> I agree. My point is that probably not one
> of us has ever begun, for example, a home
> repair/remodeling project that didn't turn
> out to take longer and cost more than we
> initially thought it would. Locomotives and
> cars are pretty much the same way.

We've talked about locomotives in this thread; but as Earl points out also car projects can take longer and cost more.

When the Nevada State Railroad Museum restored (rebuilt) V&T coach #4 it became more of a project than projected. Once the side sheathing was removed it became obvious that about 80% of the vertical members of the side framing had to be replaced! There went the schedule and the budget.

A lot of us can recount many such stories.

Brian Norden

bnorden49@earthlink.net