> Most of what enthralled you did not rely on
> the car being operated!

WAKE UP CALL ... there is very little attraction to myself and evidently a whole lot of other folks to visit a "stuffed and mounted" railroad exhibit.
I cite as examples, Trolleyville ...with a few riders ...and Carillon Park in Dayton, stuffed and mounted ...good thing there are other displays.

> Where were you and
> all the other fans who could have
> experienced the same sights at Trolleyville
> at some point over the last 40 years??

For myself ..I was there when Trolleyville was beginning and helped move a lot of equipment to the site .. since then I have participated in the preservation of at least 15 traction cars and RR equipment, only two of which ended up scrap. Working on the continuing rebuild of the L&WV. ..current locomotive owner (ge13031) and a former tourist pullman. Along with my brother working on LSE167 & AA715. Logically collecting pieces, parts to assist in traction preservation for several museums. Preserving Ohio interuban history, cataloging remaining sites and artifacts. Until the last one passed away, working with the LSE veterans association. Continually lobbying to organize the traction history of Ohio ...someplace to relive the "interurban era" in a positive and DYNAMIC way. And in my spare time built a 35 year career in a steel plant and raising a loving family that supports all this craziness.

> The consummables you refer to are not
> exactly hardware store items and the cost of
> servicing or rewinding one of those motors
> can easily run over $10,000 - that is, if
> the core and commutator are not damaged.

That is the name of the game and all part of doing business ... and why so many folks build models. Remember that like a piano or a violin internal damage accumulates in this equipment unless you are fortunate enough to have good climate control. Like anything else this equipment has logical operating and maintenance requirements ... If you wish I can post statistics on motor and wheel life that lead me to believe that done right you can expect a lot of service from this equipment. Don't on the other hand stick it in a barn for years and then one day decide to barrel the daylights out if it.

> I would stand in line also to see them run
> and continue to ooh and aah when visiting a
> museum. But that is the 'fan' in me and I do
> not think fans can sustain a serious
> preservation effort. There were many on hand
> in Cleveland and I know of some who gladly
> drove 400 miles to see the show. But I
> suggest that is the novelty of the situation
> as these cars have been preserved and could
> have been viewed and ridden for decades,
> previously at Trolleyville. But we didn't
> 'cause it was familiar, it was there, and
> 'always would be'.

If fans supported the movement, LSE167 and several other interesting pieces of equipment would have been operating on CTS and the Shaker Rapid in the late 60's ..believe it or not the atmosphere and the acceptance was there, too bad so sad. It is just a slight hint of "what sells" when you see one of these babies OPERATING close to its original venue, STO. sells=$$$$

> Regrettably, for the visiting public, they
> may come for a ride but usually are not too
> concerned about what is hauling them around.
> And we need the public, and large numbers of
> them, to foot the bills. Let's save the good
> stuff and not use it up.

Au Contrere ..there is a great deal of interest displayed by anyone "in the seats" when someone takes the time to explain the history of the vehicle they are riding in. I have seen this time and time again. This is your chance to bring them back again, and again. Stuffed and Mounted they just walk by on their one time visit and say thats nice, i've seen it all, good job, bye-bye.

> Bob Kutella

BOB: you and I will probably never agree on this but I have been on too many "last trips" and moribund funereal museum exhibits ... it was sure nice to go on a "first trip" for a change.


lamontdc@adelphia.net

If you have some deep pockets, new reproduction Birney trucks are avaliable from Bendigo Tramways in Australia. Other parts are avaliable there also. I have also found many photos of first generation Birnies built on Brill 21E trucks.
Roger Mitchell
Master Mechanic
Fort Collins Municipal Railway

n0mcr@netzero.net

Two words: Location and Marketing.

Dave

irondave@bellsouth.net

Greeting,

It is very exciting to see a debate going on over some traction issues, and hearing the pro's and con's from both sides. Both sides have thier "points" both good and bad, depending on what expectations one has.

I'd be every interested to know the ridership stats for the two day Cleveland event, versus what the visitor stats for the Brookin's Museum has been of late, either by weekend or entire season.

I for one, believe in the farmer's axe theory, that is the original that he purchased, but over time has had 5 new wooden handles, 2 new steel heads and changed the wedge from wood to steel and back again. "Most" any rail vehicle has been modified since it was delivered from the vendor, or certainly, for example, doesn't have it's original wheel sets it was delivered on.

Some museum's will pass on, due to poor visitor patronage, looking at the "stuffed" (if your lucky) cars resting comforatbly in the museums buildings (and that is a whole other discussion).

It will be interesting to watch the events that are taking place in Lowell, Mass and see what the publics reaction will be. Meanwhile, other very public operations have outstanding ridership (the cable car lines and the "F" line in S.F., New Orleans). SEPTA is rebuilding a small group of PCC cars (with new trucks/propulsion), and it will be interesting to see if that helps to re-vive some of the downtown sections in Philly. The Portland Ore. marketing people expect a large return on thier dollar for putting in a small streetcar line.

Marketing and up keep of the equipment is a very large issue. If done right, it can be a very big plus to the local communities.

A nice display may last forever, but the averge visitor who experiances the delights of riding in public conveivance, will recall it for years.

Where do you stand ? Looking at a "stuffed" car in a building, or riding out in the public, perhaps getting off at some stop for lunch and watching the the lines ridership getting on + off the cars on the line ?

Karl Johnson



karljohnson@sbcglobal.net

> Two words: Location and Marketing.

> Dave

Trolleyville was not the first nor will it be the last "private enterprise" to have such problems. It is to be emphasized that neither lack of fans nor the lack of an active group of volunteers caused this situation. Three cheers for what could turn out to be a real "jewel"


lamontdc@adelphia.net

> I'd be every interested to know the
> ridership stats for the two day Cleveland
> event, versus what the visitor stats for the
> Brookin's Museum has been of late, either by
> weekend or entire season.

Me too, but don't expect a fan trip to have the same turnout as daily operations. I really know little about the qualities/characteristic of the line in question, perhaps it would be a fantastic attraction in a touristy area.

> I for one, believe in the farmer's axe
> theory, that is the original that he
> purchased, but over time has had 5 new
> wooden handles, 2 new steel heads and
> changed the wedge from wood to steel and
> back again. "Most" any rail
> vehicle has been modified since it was
> delivered from the vendor, or certainly, for
> example, doesn't have it's original wheel
> sets it was delivered on.

The real problem here that Kutella is getting at is not wearing out bearings and the like, it is the potential for catastrophic wear of a rare and historic vehicle. For instance: the dreaded accident, or blowing a motor at speed causing the normally reusable parts to be scrapped. Wood car bodies themselves can handle only so much flexing before they get a little too loose, and it needs a complete overhaul (if Guerra has the time and you have the money). This is why I suggested old PCCs versus 100 year old wood interurbans. This is why replicas are starting to look worthwhile.

> If done right, it can be a
> very big plus to the local communities.

Agreed. The issue is what is "right." I think it is "right" to establish a historical collection when possible on active transit lines, but use it on occasional or rare occasions, while using up the larger parts supplies or reproduced products in a heritage trolley service.

In other aspects, if Trolleyville wants to move to this new line, great... but really, do they need all the 460 cars there too? They might be able to finance their move in part by selling off some of the duplicity in their collection.

If anyone would care to make up the patterns for the cast parts of a Baldwin or Birney reproduction truck, I'll be glad to cast them at a very affordable price out of whatever metal you desire. I have recently become associated with a small foundry and we cater to unusal and small jobs that the bigger foundries can't do or would charge an exhorbanant price for.



Fast Cast
rick@todengine.org

Greetings,

I think one issue that seems to be mis-understood, at least by myself, most museums when they "restore" a car for operation on thier demonstration line, as near as I can tell, usually replace the either rotted or rusted materials, some times by carefully splicing in a new piece, attempting to retain as much as possible, the original piece, and at other times, wholesale change out of the material ( example, the T&G exterior siding). After this has been done, hasn't the original materials been updated, much like the farmer's wooden handle on the axe ? So, if this is the case, why or what is the worry should the car be involved in an accident? And frankly, unless, the car is already rotten, most cases, it will win with a typical auto versus streetcar .

And yes, breakdowns and other mechanical issues are expensive, but the price of community relations cannot be overlooked. I see in this weekends San Francisco Chronicle (real estate section) an ad for a modern condo's, with a photo of a Milan and PCC car at a passenger stop. This may seem insignifigant, but in the larger picture, here is your free advertizing for potential customers = more ridership, ect....

One question, and perhaps this was a typo, but i am not as familiar with the Brookin's Museum, but do they have 460 cars (see below) ?

> but really, do they need all the 460 cars there too?

Sincerely,

Karl Johnson

karljohnson@sbcglobal.net

> One question, and perhaps this was a typo,
> but i am not as familiar with the Brookin's
> Museum, but do they have 460 cars (see
> below) ?

I think the 460 refernce is to the Pullman CA&E steel cars in the collection at Brookins. I recall they have at least four.

Wesley

> One question, and perhaps this was a typo,
> but i am not as familiar with the Brookin's
> Museum, but do they have 460 cars (see
> below) ?

Karl, Trolleyville is listed with 40 pieces of traction equipment. Somewhat fewer are shown at the link below which will give you a pretty good idea of what they have. Who is to say what they need and don't need ?? ...I am certainly glad they have what they have.

The folks that appear to be against the operation of historic equipment seem to be a small minority and they do have points worth listening to. I would also be willing to bet none of them know what RTA did to the equipment before it was operated. Nobody wants to endanger the public or anyone involved by reckless operation of junk. Nobody wants equipment that has not been properly maintained out on the line. IRM had the sister cars out on the line after a very expensive motor rebuild and I'll bet they got a better workout then RTA gave the cars on the Waterfront Line. These cars are built to run ... we can carefully select the when and where so that they can continue to do so for many many years yet.

http://www.bera.org/pnaerc.html
lamontdc@adelphia.net

> Karl, Trolleyville is listed with 40 pieces
> of traction equipment. Somewhat fewer are
> shown at the link below which will give you
> a pretty good idea of what they have.

The PNAERC database shows the entire Trolleyville collection (minus two PCC's recently acquired from GCRTA) except for freight cars, of which I can think of about 5, and electric cars from outside North America, of which I can think of one. Those figures may be off.

> IRM had
> the sister cars out on the line after a very
> expensive motor rebuild and I'll bet they
> got a better workout then RTA gave the cars
> on the Waterfront Line.

I respectfully disagree. IRM's route is completely flat, without any of the grades on the Waterfront line, and in addition the power-to-weight ratio on IRM's wood train (two cars/six motors) is higher than on the 303/36. There is also less accelerating/decelerating on IRM's "straight-shot" mainline.

Frank Hicks

Preserved North American Electric Railway Cars
fullparallel@wideopenwest.com

> I respectfully disagree. IRM's route is
> completely flat, without any of the grades
> on the Waterfront line, and in addition the
> power-to-weight ratio on IRM's wood train
> (two cars/six motors) is higher than on the
> 303/36. There is also less
> accelerating/decelerating on IRM's
> "straight-shot" mainline.

> Frank Hicks

Frank: 303 never got out of series on the waterfront line and in two places achieved last point series momentarily. The roller coaster overpass was run at two or three points and the very tight curves were coasted thru very slowly, this will really play hell on wheel wear. You walk up the grade to Tower City maybe in the third point. You really can't get any speed up on this short run as you are constantly shutting off and slowing down ...the car was not working very hard. Where the cars were really tested was the couple of trips they took up the long 3% grade to Shaker Square.


lamontdc@adelphia.net