I think this sort of thing is worth discussing. People do use contractors, and people seeking bids on projects should know a contractors past history.

The cheapest bid isn't always the best one to take. And keep watch over everything being done. If it looks wrong..... say something, ask questions.

Forgive us for jumping to the conclusion that a moderator removed the post, Doug. There is a history (I'll leave it at that) with a group/individual involved in the document on this board, and it would not be unimaginable to see anything of offense taken down to avoid or appease threats of legal action against the website, its moderators, or its users. Interesting the author chose to remove it on their own.

For factual reference and neutral, progressive discussion, I include the legal document that was removed and has stirred this thread up.

Update: RyPN has been provided with information that neither party authorized the release of this document and have put forth a joint authorization to remove this document. For now we have removed this document and request that the members of RyPN refrain from reposting it. If you really have a burning desire to see it you can always file a FOIA request with the relevant government entities.

I chose tovoluntarily delete the post. I was reminded that the contractor is very litigious. I don’t wanna get sued for simply sharing information. I was also reminded that one of the moderators on this forum (one who works professionally for a railroad museum) is friends with the contractor and as often deleted posts that are bad publicity for the contractor.

I have a personal connection to the locomotive. My daddy and granddaddy used to go to Morehead to see it. I rode behind a Goldrush Junction. I think it’s very sad what has happened no matter who is involved. I also think it’s sad that another moderator has admitted here that he might have deleted the document. If we can’t talk about what’s wrong, what can we talk about?

Oh nice to see Wasatch tried blaming some of the shoddy work on the volunteers. What little we were allowed to do is the only stuff NOT listed as being screwed up in the ruling.

The era we live in now is much different then what it was just ten years ago. I read reviews on nearly every attraction, hotel, restaurant, etc., when I go on vacations and it has been a extremely helpful tool. Nobody likes bad publicity, but if I have learned anything about reviews, the person running the place rarely changes his or her bad habits. Unfortunately I learned this the hard way with two badly botched crowns from my dentist. Had I read the two star reviews of this dentist I would have stayed far away.

Contractors should be reviewed and held accountable for their actions. I remember we hired some contractors to do some welding on a very large piece of machinery that had several cracks on the structure. This job should have taken maybe a week. A month later I am looking at their work and their welds and thinking "what are these guys doing"? I was working as the supervisor at the time and I told those two contractors I need to see them in my office. I said "do you know what you are doing? Because that work won't even pass the lowest standards". We fired them that day. We had to hire more expensive contractors to clean up the mess they did, and to fix the original problem. It ending up costing tens of thousands of dollars not to mention a lot of down time. We would have sued them if I thought they had any money.

I have left negative reviews on some companies that made them very angry. Facts are facts. People should be exposed when they do wrong. If they are breaking the law we should know about it. If they are doing crap work then we should know about it.

Yes and $65.00 a hour for labor for specialized work is pretty low. When I was overhauling locomotives the rates for labor was $85.00 a hour, welding was electrical was $115.00 a hour, and machinist work was $135.00 hour. Everything was billed in one hour minimum increments even if it only took 5 minutes to tighten up a bolt. Most auto mechanics are typically billing you $80.00-$125.00 a hour. You get what you pay for.

Good morning folks,

I was saddened to read the Arbitrator's decision. I feel that the decision will only produce a "lose-lose" scenario for the parties involved.

A 3/4 of a million dollar award and only 30 days to pay virtually assures that Wasatch will be filing for bankruptcy. Once that happens, Wasatch will disappear and the folks who won the award will have nothing to show for it. Sad, but very likely to happen ......

This is NOT good news for rail preservation. Just my two cents....

The big problem with reviews:

Years ago, before the internet, I remember reading the results of an actual study on car-buying habits that reported that if you had a good experience buying a car (the car itself, the dealership, etc.), the average person would tell an average of three people about it, whereas if the experience was bad, they would tell an average of eight people about it.

Magnify that with Yelp/Amazon/Facebook/etc., and both numbers--but far more likely the latter--go up a hundredfold or more.

I had a good meal at a restaurant last night. But I didn't rush home to write a glowing review of it. Nor, in MY case, would I have postulated about it online if it were a not-so-sterling meal. But we all have seen people that seemingly live just to exact "revenge" for being "wronged" by posting negativity far and wide.

I have to undertake a body repair to my car after a hit-and-run. I can do a passable repair with my time and purchased supplies for less than $100. I can ask a body shop to do the repainting of a replacement fender with the "right" equipment for $350-400. I could go to a "professional" shop that will do exactly what I would do (except maybe mix a batch of fresh paint using the paint codes I provide) and charge me $1,000 for it--arguably more than the insurance company will say the car is worth, but still less than half of it would cost me to actually get another used car of this calibre. And, honestly, there's no guarantee the body shop would come out with results better than I could do if I went and borrowed a spray paint gun. But if they produce inferior results, is it right for me to excoriate them online?

"I chose to voluntarily delete the post. I was reminded that the contractor is very litigious. I don’t wanna get sued for simply sharing information. I was also reminded that one of the moderators on this forum (one who works professionally for a railroad museum) is friends with the contractor and as often deleted posts that are bad publicity for the contractor."

Guessing this is directed at me. Yes, I know John. However, there is no merit in the claim that I've deleted posts that are bad publicity for the contractor. As I recall, the post(s) I removed several years ago had started out as a civil discussion but had devolved into a shouting match "he said, she said" between two people. If two contractors want to argue with each other, an online forum like RYPN is not the place to do it. Have it out with each other in private, not here.

I did not see the post that was removed today nor the document that was posted. However, if it was a legal document (not public) that the author didn't have permission to post, it likely would have been removed no matter the contents.

In short, this sucks!

This is an interesting discussion. One question comes up, how do you know if a contractor is reputable? Is there a guide out there? Trains Mag?

A museum I volunteered at back in the 80's a couple of our younger volunteers went off and started a steam restoration company. They screwed up quite a few locomotive and since they talked a great game, they kept getting work. I am not saying that is case here as I do not know Wasatch RR Contractors.

Since it is now public and all over the internet, attached is the ruling. Reading through it, I still am not sure what happened or how it could have been prevented.

Is there a website that reviews railroad contractors for museums to view before committing valuable resources? Should there be?

Update: RyPN has been provided with information that neither party authorized the release of this document and have put forth a joint authorization to remove this document. For now we have removed this document and request that the members of RyPN refrain from reposting it. If you really have a burning desire to see it you can always file a FOIA request with the relevant government entities.

The work should speak for itself shouldn’t it?

Steam Operations Corporation, Strasburg, etc. you can see the quality of work for yourself. I would hope that anyone would seek out reviews, professional opinions etc. before entering into a several hundred thousand dollar contract.

Arbitration decisions in the rail industry are very often covered by non-disclosure agreements (usually as part of the agreement to arbitrate). I suspect (but do not know) that this may be true here.

A line at the end of the work contract stating "outstanding invoices payable ONLY when FRA man applies sticker to the equipment" for one thing.

The case was filed in federal court, which sent it to arbitration. When I visited the Clerk's Office, the Order said that the court case would stay open to enforce the result of the arbitration.