Does anyone in the RYPN Nation know of a PE Structural Engineer that would be interested in doing some consulting on structural repairs for privately owned passenger cars that are Amtrak Certified or are working towards Amtrak Certification?

Over the last 20 years or so, there have been maybe 4 or 5 guys that car owners have used for this work, but in the intervening years, all these guys have either retired or died. Thus currently there seems to be few, if any, from the old school available for this work. I currently have 3 projects that are on hold due to not being able to find a PE Structural Engineer to review proposals for repairs to side sills and/or collision posts on privately owned passenger cars. Short of going through the phone book (made difficult since there are no phone books any more) or randomly searching the internet, I am out of ideas for how to find someone. Anyone out there have any leads besides Starfire?

Professional Engineers are licensed by state governments. If you want to find a PE that does structural engineering in your state, you should start by googling the phrase "Structural Engineering Association of [State Name]." Some list their members right on their website; others might require you to call them to get a list.

You should also know that some states have Structural Engineer (SE) licenses. SEs are PEs that have gone on to pass additional exams. The states that license SEs require them when complex structures are being designed -- buildings over a certain height, complex bridges, and/or essential facilities like hospitals, etc.

You should not need a SE for your work; I just mention it because if you ask for a licensed "Structural Engineer" in one those states they will think you're asking for a SE license holder.

https://www.efiglobal.com/find-an-expert/

Currently the largest forensic engineering firm (by number of employees) in the country. They employ a number of engineers of every discipline in every state including structural and can provide a local expert in almost all parts of the country.

Just contact your closest office (they have offices in most major cities) and they will help you locate an expert that will fit your needs.

Thanks for the suggestions so far. By posting my request on this site, I am hoping I might find a candidate who is involved in railway preservation and thus might already have some knowledge of what I am looking for.

Agreed. We’re not talking complex structural systems here. A Civil PE would do just fine.

Amtrak requires a PE Structural Engineer to sign off on the design for any structural repairs.

Your location or the location of the car could refine the search.

“SMP 28603 - Mechanical Standards for Operating Privately Owned Cars in Amtrak Trains”, in Section 12, only specifies a “registered Professional Engineer” (PE). A Civil PE or Structural SE are both registered professional engineers. You have to pass a structural section in your Civil PE test. Unless there’s some other Amtrak document or AAR requirements that specify only an SE, I’m not aware of it and would like to know where it’s spec’d for my own future reference.

I’m not an Amtrak expert. But I did spend 20 years with a specialty design, fabricate, build firm in the heavy construction industry for large occupied structures. I can count with less than one hand the number of times it was specified that our PE’s designs had to be reviewed by an SE.

I brought up using a Civil PE only because a full-blown SE is going the have a premium hourly charge as compared to a Civil PE. Civil PEs will be more than adequate to do the design and calculations for structural repairs or modifications. The trick will be finding one that is already familiar with rail car construction and doesn’t have to look up any specific regs or requirements.

There may be some confusion here concerning both the role and the expertise of a professional engineer. A couple of points about how this generally works. There are some slight variations in individual states.
• Engineering, like many professions, is regulated by the individual states. Think of the letters “P.E” as carrying much the same weight as “M.D.”
• Engineering licensure originally came about as a consumer protection measure, due to a proliferation of failures – mostly bridges – which had been designed and built by persons with little or no qualifications to do such work. Wyoming was the first state to require engineers to be licensed back circa 1907.
• Because of the consumer protection origins of engineering licensure, it is generally only engineers who offer their services for a fee – i.e., consulting engineers – who are required to be registered with their states. Engineers who work in industry – say a steel mill, utility, or a manufacturing concern – are generally not required to be licensed. This “industrial exemption” is a point of significant contention within the engineering field. Massachusetts recently required that natural gas pipelines be designed only by registered professional engineers due to several spectacular failures of pipelines that had been designed by unlicensed engineers on the gas company’s staff.
• Engineers become licensed through a combination of training, experience, and examination. Generally, they are required to have a four year undergraduate degree in engineering from a college certified by ABET (an acronym which originally stood for “Accreditation Board for Engineering and Technology”). They must then gain at least four years of relevant work experience under the direct supervision of an already licensed/registered Professional Engineer. During this period they also need to take an eight hour written examination in basic engineering principles, after which they can use the title “Engineering Intern” or “Engineer-in-Training”, depending on the rules of their state. Finally, upon gaining the requisite experience and with the recommendation of five other already licensed P.E.s , they can sit for another 8-hour examination in the specific engineering discipline where they intend to work. While a plurality of licensed engineers are tested in either Civil or Structural disciplines, many others are tested in other disciplines including Mechanical, Electrical, Chemical and some others.
• However, regardless of which test they take, with very few exceptions, they all are licensed only as Professional Engineers – P.E. for short. Illinois has a separate Structural Engineer – “S.E.” designation. California requires engineers who design structures to have additional training and examination concerning seismic design considerations. There are a few other states with similar limitations, but those are exceptions, not the usual case.
• Here’s a very important point. Registered Professional Engineers are ethically obligated to practice only in only those disciplines where they are qualified based on training, experience and - in most states – continuing education. Going back to the medical profession for a moment, while they are an M.D., you would not hire a Dermatologist to operate on your gall bladder. In the example being discussed here, while an engineer licensed in the Civil discipline might technically be able to perform the structural design of a railcar body, he may not be qualified to do so – or no longer qualified to do so. In my own case, while I’m a Civil Engineer, it has been over four decades since I did any structural design. I wouldn’t even dream of doing anything beyond the most rudimentary structural calculations, much less analyze a structure as complex as a railcar body. To do so now would be an violation of my ethical obligation to limit my practice to those areas in which I am currently competent.

Again this is how it works in most US states. Canadian rules are materially different, but have the same intent – making certain that only competent individual provide engineering services for hire.

So, my advice to Topfuel is to seek out a registered Professional Engineer who has specific experience in the design of vehicles, preferably railcars, and who will recognize and account for the unique and particularly brutal external loadings to which railcars are subjected.

/s/ Larry
Lawrence G. Lovejoy, P.E.

Well said, Larry! This is excellent guidance to the general public in understanding how licensure of professional engineers works and associated general ethical considerations.

Sincerely,
Matthew W. Nawn, P.E. (licensed in Pennsylvania and Maryland)

"Your location or the location of the car could refine the search."

The location of the cars in question, or my home location, is not a really a consideration. The 3 PV's needing this work are located are in 3 different areas of the country. If I can find someone who is qualified and interested in this work, they will either be able to work from their office and use pictures of the areas to be repaired as reference, or they will need to fly out to where the cars are and do an in-person inspection. This is a nationwide search. I will be happy to find someone regardless of where they are located in the US.

See your PM box, we may be able to help here at Stone Consulting.

Since rail cars are mobile and can, in effect, go anywhere, it brings up a couple of more questions concerning locations. Do the cars have now or will they have one home base? If one home base, I’m assuming that one PE could do all three cars. If three home bases in three different states, I’d assume that you’d either need three PEs or less if there is license reciprocity between the states involved or the PE holds licenses in the states where the cars are based. How would that work?

Professional Engineers are licensed by state governments.

State governments do not regulate railcars -- the Federal Government (FRA) does -- so state laws requiring the use of PEs do not apply to railcars regulated by FRA.

Correct on both statements. However, Amtrak specifies structural modifications or repairs to be designed by a PE. Nothing prevents them from specifying so.