This bit is over 45 years old. It is futile to keep trying to rehash a rail preservation version of it on this forum that is anywhere near as relevant or outright hilarious. So please stop.

MAN: [yelling] Bring out your dead!

CUSTOMER: Here's one.

CART MASTER: Nine pence.

DEAD PERSON: I'm not dead!

CART MASTER: What?

CUSTOMER: Nothing. Here's your nine pence.

DEAD PERSON: I'm not dead!

CART MASTER: 'Ere. He says he's not dead!

CUSTOMER: Yes, he is.

DEAD PERSON: I'm not!

CART MASTER: He isn't?

CUSTOMER: Well, he will be soon. He's very ill.

DEAD PERSON: I'm getting better!

CUSTOMER: No, you're not. You'll be stone dead in a moment.

CART MASTER: Oh, I can't take him like that. It's against regulations.

DEAD PERSON: I don't want to go on the cart!

CUSTOMER: Oh, don't be such a baby.

CART MASTER: I can't take him.

DEAD PERSON: I feel fine!

CUSTOMER: Well, do us a favor.

CART MASTER: I can't.

CUSTOMER: Well, can you hang around a couple of minutes? He won't be long.

CART MASTER: No, I've got to go to the Robinsons'. They've lost nine today.

CUSTOMER: Well, when's your next round?

CART MASTER: Thursday.

DEAD PERSON: I think I'll go for a walk.

CUSTOMER: You're not fooling anyone, you know. Look. Isn't there something you can do?

DEAD PERSON: [singing] I feel happy. I feel happy.

[whop]

CUSTOMER: Ah, thanks very much.

CART MASTER: Not at all. See you on Thursday.

CUSTOMER: Right. All right.

Golly - how many things have happened in the last 5 years that we all said were impossible?

Big Boy

East Broad Top

NW 611 operating

C&O 1309

A steam locomotive at Como

MEC 470 under restoration

National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP).

Are they part of the problem? They have the term “colored” in their title, and use if quite frequently on their official website.

Whether you know it or not, different terms are used in different places across the country. I have black (by far the preferred term among my students) students who are highly offended by the term African American, and several have used the term “colored” to describe themselves. This means that you need to be open-minded as to what the local trends are. Think about the term “queer” which used to be highly offensive, and is now the required term on many college campuses. I just try to treat everyone with respect and avoid the whole race, gender, etc., issue.

I vote for giving some allowance if someone's heart is in the right place.

It's ok. Txhighballer branded me a racist long ago. My best friend in grade school ( Sidney Brown) was a colored boy and we couldn't have been closer. When I ran away from our Cranford, NJ home at age 14 and hitchhiked to California, I lived for a while in the Watts section of LA. and was probably the only white face within 20 blocks?? I got to know and befriend a lot of colored folks in Watts and discovered something about them. They're the same as white folks.....most are good people with a very few bad apples thrown in.

I suspect that the reason there are very few minorities or women in railway preservation is that for the entire steam era ( 1830-1950) it was a white mans world on the T&E side and that fact has probably influenced who has come into our hobby/industry??

I'm all for being as inclusive as possible. We have a very capable lady firewoman at New Hope who can compete with the best of them.

We need all the youngsters we can get to carry that steam torch forward.

IMHO-Ross Rowland

Allright now I am angry as hell. First, my response to Ross Rowland was deleted for no good reason when I called him out for his very apparent racism, although I never called him a racist on the forum. "Colored" is an offensive term, and I consider it a deliberate slur against persons like myself. Here and on other forums, Ross Rowlands blatant racism has been challenged by me there and here, and I will continue to do do. I can be Black, I can be African American, but if you ever call me Colored you will see a very unfriendly side of me that I have zero problems in displaying, and I'm quite sure my feeling is shared by 30 million of my kindred souls.

As far as the NAACP is concerned, are you a member? I bet not. You are just as much of a racist for going there as Ross is. Context is what matters here. Steven, I'm giving ZERO allowances for someone "whose heart is in the right place." If it was in the right place, then such language would not be used either in my presence or not, or to describe folks who look like me.

As far as Ross' travels, here is a factoid...racists can have black friends. I've witnessed it first hand. I've also seen that so called friendship end up in tragedy ( James Byrd). If you don't know who that is, Google it.

Here is another Ross fact...how many black men or women worked on the crews of the AFT? The Chessie Safety Express? The 614T coal train trials? The 614 excursions in New Jersey and elsewhere? It's an easy prime number and there are plenty of videos and pictures to prove my point.

How many of you realize that the first person to die in railroad service was a black man?

Some of you know my backstory, but for those of you who don't, understand this...I'm the grandsons of Pullman porters, great nephews of a steam locomotive fireman (ATSF) and engineer (on two Arizona logging lines), track foremen and various other railroad occupations. You see, railroading is in my blood just as much, if not more, than it is in yours.. Telling the story of how railroad employment brought better wages and opportunities to black folks is a story I try to tell every chance I get. When a black child sees me in the cab of a locomotive, whether it be steam or diesel, he now knows the dream can be a reality, that locomotive cabs are not the sole domain of white males. Opening doors is what we need to be doing, not closing them. You Ross and a couple here are doing what you can to close and weld them shut. I also take the moderators to task in editing out my response...that puts you squarely on the side of the racists, IMHO.

To put it mildly, our vocations doesn't need this kind of swill, but one thing if for certain...I'm not going anywhere, and I will call you out if you cross the line...

Seems to me that the historical truth surrounding the facts that hiring colored men to be Pullman car porters provided tens of thousands of them a way out of poverty in the south and began a northward movement as the industrial revolution matured that eventually numbered in the millions. Great stories of liberation and lifting them and their families out of abject poverty.

Txhighballer is correct in that in my various steam projects to date we've had a paucity of minority members principally as they never showed up wanting to be on the crew.

Hopefully in the future we'll have some minority candidates ??

Hope springs eternal. Ross Rowland

This is where you lost me. I have a wariness for anyone who purports to speak for anyone but themselves. I too have fallen into this trap. As for why, well, it makes me sound more authoritative by adding the gravitas of numbers behind my thoughts, I feel more secure in my beliefs if I can believe that many others share them, and it greatly simplifies the world for me by believing I can know what others think or how they think. Unfortunately, this last reason is one of the foundations of all "isms".

As for the term "colored", it never made sense to me as my first recollection of hearing it as a child brought the question to my mind, "Well, what color?"

Another interesting thing about labels in the use of "African American" (which you indicate you are comfortable with) vs "black" is that people I have met who are from the Caribbean or are more recent African immigrants do not want to be called "African American", a term they identify more with people who are legacy descendants of those who came here as slaves.

Like anything else, even though rail preservation is about preserving the past and learning from the successes and failures of those who came before us, the best bet for rail preservation to thrive is if it does not live in the past and looks to the future.

"But I don't know of anyone of my hue and shared history would be comfortable with using the word "colored".

That's fine...but as I said, I do know some blacks that are comfortable with and do use the word colored. I also have some that when asked what they consider their race, they immediately us the N-word. I had a trackman that used the term in every story he told about himself and his family, and several students out of Chicago that wore the title with pride when they would come by my office and chat (I helped them all get great jobs and we still chat or e-mail pretty regularly). Again, as I said, if you stop with the segregation of people by race and terms, and instead focus on human, a lot of these issue and hurt feelings go away.

The key may be "shared history." It certainly sounds racist to me when someone says that they are speaking for 30 million people ("I'm quite sure my feeling is shared by 30 million of my kindred souls.") and that they all must think like alike and use the same terms, which sometimes don't really describe the situation. No group of people all have the same experiences, opinions, interests, and goals. Saying they do almost immediately loses any argument or debate.

One of the funniest examples I have seen on this was several college professors demanding an "African-American" (yes, they used the hyphen which seems to have fallen out of favor) degree because that was what all black students wanted a degree in. They were shocked when zero students signed up for the degree, because they knew better. A survey on the issue found that most of the students knew what being black was like, they wanted a degree that would lead to a job. The professors were insulted and spoke out against getting a degree for a job - that's not what blacks really wanted. They spent several years trying to prove that all black students should have the degree. The "experts" just couldn't understand why so few agreed with them.

Racism happens on all sides and pretty much with all groups. Again, accept people as they are and don't think that everyone has to agree and do things exactly as you want things to be. Hitler, Mao, Stalin, Castro, and others have tried that and it has never turned out too well.

By the way, I'm not quite sure what being a member or not of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People has to do with their use of the term "colored." A person on this site clearly stated that using the term was racist, no exceptions. I simply pointed out that the largest organization in the United States that states it fights for racial justice, equity and advancement has the very word in its name. That should show that the use of the term is not always racist, whether that individual likes it or not, or that the NAACP is a racist organization because of its use of the word. Do you see the challenge?

I feel obligated to post a correction to Txhighballers totally incorrect statement above that none of my projects have had minority participation.

That's simply not factual.

For the 36 steam excursions run under the High Iron Company name ( 1966-73) my private car Brothers Two was manned by Chef Robbie Williams and Attendant JD Wilson. Both were colored men and long time professional railroaders of the finest caliber. Mr. Wilson worked on my Dad's business car 97 on the CRRofNJ and was a family friend for many years.

On the Golden Spike Centennial Limited we employed a Chef, Second Cook, Pantry man and Bartender all of whom were colored men and long time pros in their jobs.

During the operation of the American Freedom Train ( 1975-76) we employed a total of 16 colored men in different positions at different times, during the 48 state, 21 month tour.

One of our mechanical engineers who worked on the ACE 3000 project ( 1980-88) was a very fine colored man from Huntington, W. Va.

If we get AFT 2.0 funded I will make a sincere effort to recruit as many qualified minority members as we can find. That's a promise.

Happy New Year. Ross Rowland

Is this thread even appropriate for RyPn?

Yes, I understand all of this. That is why I pointed it out. I am curious as to why it appears that you assumed that I did not understand this point and appear to have believed it necessary to explain it to me? The larger irony in labeling is that you expressed an opinion that "African American" is more to your liking and more appropriate. You stated that Mr. Rowland's use of "colored" is one of the behaviors which you consider to be racist. The irony is that, while his use of "colored" certainly dates him (just like using "negro" as in United Negro College Fund would date someone perhaps a bit younger than Mr. Rowland), his use is actually more inclusive than "African American" because it includes people of Caribbean descent and more recent African immigrants.

A couple of posters pointed out that "colored" was used for a period of time by both whites and non-whites to describe what most of us today would label as "black". It was not a universally pejorative term, like the derogatory term still used in a stylized form by many blacks today, and so it was adopted into the name of the NAACP and is still in use in the name today. Labeling these folks as racist for merely pointing this out is an unprovoked and unsubstantiated attack on their character. If I had the credibility, patience, and drive to be a moderator I would delete your comments characterizing those posters as racist.

I envy you because you profess to have a rich family history of railroading and likely have many great and important stories from your relatives who worked on the rails. A book of these stories, the good, bad, and ugly, would be a great way to honor all of your relatives and preserve their important role in rail history. It would certainly be a better way to memorialize their experience and pay homage to them than all the simplistic name calling.

Sorry to all for the diversion away from rail preservation.

Jacob Lyman is not the person you are thinking of. This is a slanderous post even if the mistake is honest, your destructive behavior in making wild accusations against him is ridiculous, uncalled for and intolerable.

Jacob Lyman goes by xboxtravis as his username. He is not related to texashighballer in any way. Please remove these screenshots, which verge on stalking, and apologize.

We whine about why young people won't be involved in this hobby but this instance is exactly why they won't be around, because people like you will flail out in your confusion and hurt them.

Josh B.

Mr. Rowland was the hogger on a Chessie Steam Special some friends and I rode out of Detroit some 45 or so years ago. I cannot remember the racial make up of the people working on or riding the train, and would not have cared. All I remember was that he did a masterful job of handling the train.
I may have talked to the man, but cannot recall.
To say that he is a racist is a serious charge. If the charge is untrue, it is libelous or slanderous. Does the accuser have proof, such as a recorded statement by Mr. Rowland that he would only hire whites?
Lacking such proof, the poster should apologize to Mr. Rowland and to all the readers on this board.

You know good and well I was not talking about service staff. I made that quite clear. When I mentioned zero, I meant welders, boilermakers, firemen, hostlers. The total is still zero. I would not advise anyone, including myself, to get involved with AFT 2.0 as long as you were in charge. You have once again disrespected me with your use of the word colored. I know it's deliberate and it clearly shows your lack of respect for me and my experiences. Good for you. You could have had me as an ally. I'm more than qualified to serve on any operating crew AFT 2.0 could have ever put together. Your attitude is one of the problems in this business, but I will neither endorse or support AFT 2.0 as long as you are in charge.