A lot of old heads are gonna groan when they see the term "sunken engines" but hear me out. I am new here, and to the preservation community. I have been fascinated with the subject for a long time, and many believe that such engines are impossible to restore. But out of curiosity, and as a "what if" scenario, what would years of immersion in water or mud, do to an engine? Mainly to it's drivers, and it's chassis (as those are the parts most likely to be salvageable) And if one were raised, how would it affect a restoration effort?

I mean engines like CPR 694, 3512, etc, engines sunken in great lakes, as well as ones like B&M 3666, the ATSF engines in the kaw river, etc. From an engineering standpoint, what shape are they likely to be in? (chassis, mainly. Boilers can be replaced) Many scoff at the idea with steam locomotives, but i hear many warplanes have been raised from the great lakes, and some even restored to airworthiness despite being in the lakes for decades. Steam locomotives are much more heavy duty in their construction, so i wonder if all the scoffing is really warranted, or if there is some chance, in theory ( i really need to emphasize the "in theory" part) , that sunken engines could be restored in some manner, or their chassis at the very least.

https://www.odt.co.nz/regions/southland ... ti-river-0
New Zealand are sort of the experts on bringing back steam engines sunk in rivers, they actually restored one sunk for rip rap to operation, so it can be done.

Hopefully, White Pass & Yukon Railway #61 will have a similar story as it too was recovered after being repurposed as rip rap and is currently being restored. As with all things in preservation, if the funds are available, anything is possible.

Nick

B&M 3666 is a rusted mess of flaked steel and barnacles, as it is in shallow water, but in a tidal river mouth. Anything recovered would require immediate chemical stabilization due to salt.

Freshwater recoveries might reveal a different chemical experience.

I still think the AT&SF mikado should be recovered. A process for doing so should be figured now, legally worked out, funding put in place, restoration management figured logistically. Move when the time is right.

I'd say your best bets are the ones that are 'encapsulated' in the earth now such as the CNR #2391 buried in a bog up along the Manitouwadge Sub in Northern Ontario, the CNR #3563 in the Frasier River (that got buried when the line was double tracked in the '80s) or the Shaw Bros. Lumber narrow gauge 2 truck Shay that sank into a bog near Nipawin, Saskatchewan.

I would absolutely be in favor of raising the ATSF Mikados and restoring it to service. The question is...when it the time right to do such a thing?

As I recall, three Santa Fe engines went into the river there in Topeka. I think it was two Mikes and a Prairie. They are apparently buried in the riverbeds mud. A few years ago, when the river was low, they found one or two engines and actually cut off some of the parts "sticking out" on one of the engines. One of the 2-8-2's was not located. Obviously, the best time to try to recover the Mikado would be when the river was low again; probably in the fall.

Les

If you do a search, some photos of a steam locomotive found buried near Mulberry, Florida, can be found. It was discovered in 2012. Basically the remains packed in dirt. It is now on display at the Mulberry Phosphate Museum. The museum is worth a visit if you are in the area.

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There are a number of issues that are likely to come into play here...

1) Who owns the engine ? (You don't want to restore something owned by someone else !!!)

2) What govt regulations come into play from organizations like the Army Corps of Engineers, US Coast Guard, State DNRs. EPA etc etc.

3) How much damage has been done by invasive species such as Zebra muscles

4) What is the business plan after the engine is brought back to the surface.

Bob H

I wouldn’t write off any submerged locomotive without seeing it first.

The Confederate submarine Hunley sank at Charleston, SC in a shallow, warm, mostly seawater harbor in 1864 and was recovered in remarkably good condition in 2000. While it isn’t a locomotive, it has a wrought iron hull which is similar in size and construction to a locomotive. The people involved with the Hunley would be a wealth of information for anyone trying to recover and preserve a submerged locomotive.

https://www.hunley.org/

The idea of finding a lost locomotive, recovering it, and restoring it to service is attractive because the first chapter reads as a “free” locomotive. But this route of obtaining an operating locomotive is probably the most expensive route possible. Not only will the cost of recovery likely be eye-popping, but the condition of the locomotive is likely to be worse than almost every locomotive that is not lost.

The only other reason to recover a lost locomotive is as an historical artifact. That is as a tangible piece of lost history that can be displayed and examined for the story of its design and construction. Two things work together to make this goal appealing. One is that value of the endeavor rises with the age of the locomotive. And the other is that the older the locomotive, the smaller and lighter it will be.

I suspect that there are a considerable number of lost locomotives that have become lost history. In other words, nobody is aware of them. First the locomotive is lost and then it legend fades away. A lot of people believe that the legends are false, and made up as wild stories during late night parties. But before legends fade away, they evolve to get wildly distorted and improbable sounding in the retelling.

The lost locomotive situation that I think would be most worthy of recovery is the two identical "Planet" class locomotives standing upright, side by side, on the bottom of the Atlantic Ocean, only 60 feet deep, off the coast of New Jersey. They are easily accessible by marine salvage equipment. There are incredibly old, dating from around 1850. So far, the story of their loss is unknown. They would be a relatively light lift with a weight of probably under 20 tons each. They are in salt water, so some post recovery stabilization would be needed. But just being visible on the ocean floor wins half the battle.

While on the subject of the New Jersey locomotives, it appears one has nearly disintegrated away judging from this 2014 ROV footage:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGkLARAvv8U

One has to wonder how they appear now, nearly six years later.

From the previous footage of the new jersey engines, both of them looked somewhat intact. But it appears with one, the boiler has rusted away and fallen right off the frame, you can even see the boiler tubes! I would love to see them raised but, one wonders if they would just crumble away at this point. Are they really still locomotives, or just flakes of rust covered in sea life holding them together in the shape of a locomotive?

https://www.steamlocomotive.info/vlocom ... play=27479
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QyuW4FYtv8
Phosphates are obviously about the worst medium for a steamer to be sunk in, I doubt the AT&SF engines in KS would be so rough (photo: Robert V.).